I don't see colt, glock, s&w,Remington etc etc coming forward offering their condolences for their products being used for what they were designed for. As a Brit, I don't want to get involved in the rights and wrongs of US gun law, as I know you don't. As mentioned, guns aren't inherently dangerous. But when a nutjob can choose between an m16 or a pointy stick, it's an easy choice in the US.

I think I have a better question...Why do we ALWAYS want to blame the tool and not the person? This is the issue some have been dancing around here. We refuse to believe that there are simply evil people out there and they do bad things. We try to blame the tool manufacturers for this (usually for political gain of some sort), when it is clearly an evil individual. Lay ALL the blame right where it belongs, on that INDIVIDUAL for the horrors he committed. We must hold people accountable for thier individual actions (and since he was caught red handed I am sure he will be convicted) and not get sidetracked with placing blame where it does not belong.

Other locales across the globe as pointed out earlier have had similar incidents, and they have much more restrictive laws for the type of equipment this deranged individual used, so it is obvious that is not going to prevent this...and therein lies the problem, you CANNOT prevent a single person from going over the edge and doing evil.

I am not trying to poke anyone in the eye here, this was a tragic event and we should only be concerned with those victims and nothing else. They are in my prayers.

T2

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T2...There's nothing pointing a finger at the tool. I was simply ignorant of the fact that the everyday person on the street can acquire protective armor normally seen on special weapons and tactics personnel. In that this seems to be the case then to continue to protect the freedom to do so is going to have to be paid in blood as has the protection of all our freedoms heretofore. The arguement that 'guns don't kill people...people kill people with guns' is one that is going to have to be debated state by state. The electorate and the political establishment in this country are going to have to decide for themselves which is more dear.

In a less enlightened England of long past this individual would have been sentenced to being drawn and quartered: carried to the place of execution, hung by the neck until barely alive yet conscious, genitals cut off and disemboweled whilst still alive and kicking, then beheaded and his body cut into quarters and left to be disposed of at the pleasure of the Crown. At the end of the day, within the judicial system which prevails, he will likely be committed to some institution be it medical or penal where he will live out the remainder of his natural life, probably in protective custody.

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[quote="ZZDoc"]T2...There's nothing pointing a finger at the tool. I was simply ignorant of the fact that the everyday person on the street can acquire protective armor normally seen on special weapons and tactics personnel. In that this seems to be the case then to continue to protect the freedom to do so is going to have to be paid in blood as has the protection of all our freedoms heretofore. The arguement that 'guns don't kill people...people kill people with guns' is one that is going to have to be debated state by state. The electorate and the political establishment in this country are going to have to decide for themselves which is more dear.



ZZDoc...Don't get me wrong, no malice intended here, just want to be clear. this is not personnal with you. I am merely discussing the topic. I understand that you were not aware of the ability to buy these items leagally, but the comment that this is going to have to be debated state by state and that the electorate and political establishment in this country is going to have to decide for themselves...quite frankly the abiltiy to buy weapons is NOT debatable...the Second Amendment is quite clear...again we are blaming the weapon...not the person...if we follow that type of thinking, then where does it stop? We can't buy cars because you can kill mulitple people with them?

What shocks me beyond belief is that people would even think of trading thier freedoms (of which I spent 28 years laying my life on the line for) for the illusion of safety. This incident while very tragic, was caused by one person and one person only. So let us leave weapons manufacturers out of this.

And I am not so sure those unenlighted folks from England from so long ago were not correct in how to handle this offender!

T2

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I have often observed in these pages that the written word, absent vocal inflection or facial expression is sterile and interpretation and intent are often confused or misunderstood. I am not at odds with the arguements that you make. I have been enlightened as to what the market is with respect to this materiel. With respect to your position on the Second Ammendment, there still remain juridictions where access to a permit to carry a concealed weapon and or possession of certain types of long guns/military type weapons are rigorously controlled and there are those which are not. The weapons manufacturer are not an issue with me and I hoped that I had made that clear.Potential killing machines of any kind in the hands of irresponsible individuals are always a risk to society. I am quite dispassionate as to what has to be endured with respect to maintaining certain freedoms. It still remains a states rights issue under The Constitution as to how rigorously their use will be controlled, be they Aston Martins or AK 47's. Do not be dismayed at the prospect of a parent looking at their child and deciding that controls need be put in place to prevent the next idiot from attempting such an atrocity. As for the manner of justice, I have some personal points of view which I believe you and I would agree on: e.g.

On reporting on the killing by police of a perpetrator who shot and killed a police officer the journalist inquired:
"Why 67 bullets to kill this man?"
The reply was:
"Because we ran out of ammunition"

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"Another day in paradise!"

ZZDoc...while you and I may disagree to which extent the States have to control weapons (as a matter of law, not our opinions as we appear to be close on that), as I see it every time a states impinges on those rights too much, the Supreme Court reminds them of thier limits. The state I live in is one of those that try thier damest to control everything they can...has lost on their gun control opinions in the courts on several occasions!

As for your closing on the report by officers...that made me laugh! Have a good one.

T2

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t2stratman,as a brit living in the states and understanding the difficultiy of reaching a aggrement of some kind of gun control,can i ask you where in the 2nd amendment does it say the citizens have the right to have semi auto weapons and multiples of them,reading my little book of the costitution it says "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" now as this was written in 1787 should the U.S not limit this right to muskets and pistols? I would suggest that the founding fathers would not expect people to go around armed like rambo.Surely some kind of limitation could be legislated for .how about 1 pistol,1 rifile and 1 shotgun per person and a limited amount of ammo.I know this wont be acceppable to the NRA but mabye those people need to give up some ground and move on for the good of the nation,just my 2cents worth.

I am Swiss - and as you guys all know, we have our assault rifles in the cupboard. But this has a military context. The 2nd amendment does not say you should be able to buy semi-automatic guns and/or walk around with guns in public. It means that the gun stays with the soldier, and that's about it.

Cheers

David

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There are lots of ways a person could kill a large number of people, and many of them do not require a gun. There really is no solution to this problem, the next mass killer could be someone you see every day on your block. Nobody suspected this guy.

A lot of time and money has been put into figuring out how to spot a mass killer before they act out. It's like trying to figure out when and where a tornado is going to form, so far nobody can do it with accuracy.

Jeffrey Dahmer was a serial killer who would drug people and then lobotomize them so they could be controlled more easily. Then he would kill them. Would making drugs illegal stop a guy like that? Apparently not.

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@Strings: In response to your post, my prior commentaries are still where I see these issues. The electorate and the elected will ultimately have to be the arbiters of how much innocent blood need be shed to preserve the freedoms allegedly held dear. If a private citizen is permitted to continue to enjoy the freedom of amassing enough materiel to constitute a one person commando raid and then proceeds to act out in said fashion well, so be it. Our sympathies will always be to the killed, the maimed and the otherwise injured. Our swift justice, hopefully, to the perpertrator, and we will continue to enjoy our collective free society.

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Fuzzyscot...It says US citizens have the right to bear arms...that has NO inherant limit. Do people need Semi Automatic weapons? In my opinion, No, but they have that right and again, the weapon is not the problem, the Nutjob that used it is the problem. This guy could have just as easy used common household chemicals and made a bomb and thrown it into the theater...his choice makes no difference. And on a side note I would never live in another country and propose to tell them how to run it...and I have lived in other countries and as a guest of those countries I would never propose to weigh in on thier way of life. I would never go to England and tell them they should have the right to have weapon.

T2

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@T2: I understand your point of view. Bear in mind that opinions have no borders and a discussion on this matter at an English pub does not have to be confrontational but merely and exchange of opinions. Should you become an expatriot, or merely a US citizen living abroad, you would certainly be entitled to be strongly opinionated/perhaps even activitistic, with respect to matters concerning your personal welfare.

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ZZDoc...I have no plans to become an expat and I have lived in other countries and have sat in pubs where conversations of this very nature have occurred. As a guest in thier country, I refrained from piping in with my opinion. I had enough respect for them and thier way of life to not try to convince them that were right or wrong. Fuzzyscot did try to throw out his opinion and did ask me directly the question, so I explained it to him and then stated how I would not poke my nose into this issue as it is a political one, and again I explained I would not do this in anothers country...it is not my place.

T2

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sorry mabye i should have added im a brit waiting to get citizenship here then mabye i can have an opinion (and a vote) on any subject.Just my 2 cents again.

I am from over the pond so i will not at all pretend to understand or insight conversation on the "gun issue" there or over here, as different as they are... Although, To put a young salesman at the start of his career or a simple retail shop owner with a gun fetish, in the line of the responsibility you mention is outright irresponsible. We both have very lucky countries but in my opinion all firearm supplies should only be from government/Police employee sports shooting stores.

Sorry my 2 Cents.

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