no one plays that anymore all i every hear is a bunch of chugging with to much gain when i go in there you know.... those kids with the flip of hair over one eye and the bandages on their wrist imagine 4 or 5 of those playing all different nonsense at the same time. that reminds me of a you tube video posted on here that floored me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-xX7iWvzbo

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I apologize to everyone for derailing the thread and indirectly starting a copy and paste battle over what constitutes
"Fascism"

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Fender is still a good company but I am not sure funding from the IPO is the answer for them. I think they have made some bad choices in terms of diversification in their sales portfolio. This is obvious in the amount they have at stake with Guitar Center. I work in a local music store that is mostly acoustic and high end electric. I believe the larger companies will realize that they need to invest more in the independents to balance their portfolios of guitar sales; especially in tough times.

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Chad
http://www.becksguitarstudio.com

some of it may have to do with current pop music also. there is a big reduction in the guitar content of allot of current pop music. that brings up the whole monkey see monkey do thing, back in the day people were exposed to more guitar players publicly. now its going like all digital and stuff man.

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De-railing a tgread doesn't make you a bad person!

I went to GC the other evening and there was a kid blasting Smoke On The Water, Most of the time i can't even identify whatever it is they're playing.

I was back trying ot a a Pawn Shop Reverse Jaguar when a younger guy, maybe 20 or so, came back ad was lusting over a Marcus Miller.

We got to talking about Motown and he was trying to impress me with his skills. i played Bernadette for him and he left. People got to realize there's always somebody better out there, and never judge a guitar or bass player by his looks

I know. I'm from NY. I know when sum body's bustin' my bawls! I busted back with some sublime sarcasm I knew you'd interpret as me thinking you were bustin' my bawls so that you'd respond with...the above.

But seriously, I don't just throw the word fascism around as it is my least favorite word. I'm just speaking the facts here based on sound information. If Benito Mussolini said that corporatism is fascism, I'll take his word for it -- especially when the US corporate regulations clearly reveal the merger between the corporation and the state. Again:

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

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"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a Conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists. The American mind simply has not come to a realization of the evil which has been introduced into our midst." J. Edgar Hoover

you know i never understood why Mussolini got such a bad reputation, he seems like a smart guy

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Whoa! I leave this thread for a day (sorry, I wanted to get back on here before now) and look where it goes! Some interesting discussions and some odd stuff, too, but that's the Fender Forum. Referring again to the article, I find this both interesting and troubling:

"Fender is seeking to sell $150 million in the IPO, and it plans to use its share of the proceeds, which it estimates as netting out at $88.2 million, to pay down a portion of its term loan. Currently 64% of its earnings go to paying interest on roughly $257 million in total debt."

64% of earnings goes to paying INTEREST on the debt. I hate to say it, but this sounds more like the US government than a private corporation. Fender hopes to raise a total $88 million through the IPO to put toward paying (I assume here) off principal, thus reducing the debt load to a still whopping $169,000,000!

With that much debt, there can't be much hope of gaining any dividend income from Fender, so that's no reason to buy stock. And the odds of short-term gain are probably poor, too, as the stock will be lucky to retain its original offering price. Of course, if enough die-hard Fender lovers kick in their thousands of dollars, maybe Fender will do better than they hope on their IPO.

I think I'll do better just hanging onto my guitars. And I find myself wondering where Musician's Friend balances in this GC equation?

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Dennis in CR
Rockin' since 1963

At one point, I thought MF was GC competition but found out they are or were a subsidary of the GC family of corporations. Further research yielded American Musical and other popular web sites are/were a subsidary of GC -- a corporation giving us the illusion of choice, if you will recall the discussion.

I have no idea if this is the current structure. If they're still part of GC, if they can be made to either show or actually produce a profit or not be some sort of tax shelter to manipulate, they'll probably close any subsidiary that's not helping the appearance of a positive accounting equation.

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"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a Conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists. The American mind simply has not come to a realization of the evil which has been introduced into our midst." J. Edgar Hoover

Because you don't buy a $1000 guitar for a 12 year old, you buy them a piece of crap to prove themselves on

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Please subscribe to my Channel!
https://www.youtube.com/user/b7567

Now hold on there little buckaroo! Not everyone has a thousand bucks to buy a guitar. How many people have you known who thought they wanted to play guitar, or bass, lost interest in a short time. There is a niche for squier instruments, as long as they sell, they'll keep making them.

I was a little surprised to hear how little of the $150 million Fender hopes to raise they actually net: $80 Million ? Some big underwriting costs? Still, it seems to me to be a good idea to retire some of their debt. Re: corporations are fascists, Leo "Mussolini" Fender was in BUSINESS. Though I agree that sometimes the needs of capital are incompatible with the needs of humans (not to mention guitar players). Don't know about GC, they can be staffed by dickish dorks and dolts no doubt, but it would NOT be a positive for them to go out of business IMO. That $11 million owed to Fender pays salaries, etc. I know burn the whole thing down, Anarchy in the USA. Good slogans for jackets, not useful when you want to buy an amp or guitar but oops only the Chinese are doing that now.

Some interesting facts about the music industry here:
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/namm/2011globalreport/

I think I'll stay out discussions like this from now on!

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I'm twanged if I do, twanged if I don't

I'd have to disagree with this just based on who I see in GC when I go in there, which is about three times a week. I don't have any trouble beating GC down on the price of a guitar, new or used, especially if I know how long they've been letting that guitar hang around and be abused. Older people who have been playing for a while tend to have a much better idea of what a guitar is really worth than the young mother who's in there with her 13-year-old son trying to find her little metal-head wanna-be his first guitar.

I think GC better serves those who are looking for instant gratification when it comes to buying a guitar or amp, bearing in mind that GC does have a 30-day NQA return policy. I have bought a lot of gear from GC and a lot of gear from MF, with satisfaction both ways, so I don't think age is that big a factor.

I think MF frequently does have slightly better deals than GC and generally, when GC emails me a 15% Off coupon, MF usually has the same deal, though you may end up having to talk to a real person to get that discount. And I always bear in mind that MF doesn't charge sales tax (yet) for the state that I live in, an automatic 7% savings.

As far as I know, MF is a wholly owned subsidiary of GC. But as far as accounting and who owes whom, who knows? GC owes Fender $11,000,000 and right now GC is a little shaky, but if GC falls, does it take MF with it? That would be interesting to know.

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Dennis in CR
Rockin' since 1963

If you go to my local GC, you'll hear this often: "I'm out of stock on that item. We can order that online. We can ship it to your home or you can pick it up here if that's better for you." Same difference.

GC maintains floor models that get written off after being sold off cheaply unless a "sucker" swings by and pays full-price. New stuff is in the back and not coming out unless you are a buyer. And, most high end stuff is out of reach and well monitored during customer sessions.

If you compare the actual cost of damaged floor goods to maintaining a very expensive web site, customer service for the web site, fulfillment center deals (international suppliers), shipping, returns, and damaged items, yeah, online probably has a slight advantage to the store, but not much, if at all. However, I can get as much of a discount from GC store as I can from MF online, they work on the same premise. If you can find it cheaper, they'll beat or match the price.

...who's got MF and GC balance sheets handy???

And yeah, I'm one of those middle-aged hippies who's thoroughly comfortable shopping online. Who wants to touch guitars that have been mauled by a bunch of nose pickin' gass wipers who don't wash their hands?However, I do see a pattern of defects in online stores and big box stores not present at mom n' pop shops. Mom n' pop almost always inspect for and reject the defects before they hit the floor. But hey, if the big box guys don't mind us sending back the junk till a non-defective keeper comes along, fine. However, you will get cut off if you abuse that feature. In one run of 5 consecutive defects sent to my home from one online setter, the sixth was not defective and entirely acceptable! They balked on the second defect before it was sent back but couldn't dispute the defects and agreed to send a replacement for each defect. Meanwhile, again, had I not stood my ground, they would have cut me off for refusing too many defects...sales by attrition I guess.

Suckers? hmmm... At one point, I knew nothing about purchasing a guitar. Based on my experiences, I think they prey on people who do not know how to buy a guitar, and suckers (people who don't take the time to research their purchase or who were never taught how to negotiate a deal). However, if you can negotiate and you know the market and there's a happy manager on duty and sales are way down or way up, you can get a really good deal if you research your purchase. But, the last time I got a good deal at the store, what showed up from the online warehouse was first thrown off the UPS truck and damaged, plus it had defects from the factory out of the box (an Ibanez), the replacement had substantial defects!

If the fascists don't get it from here on in (we want courtesy, quality, freedom, and a good price), they'll end up with empty stores, dark web sites, warehouses full of junk, and competition from a huge used market and an army of luthiers and repair people they've crushed previously who are ready to get back to work.

The fascist model is so top heavy now...I don't see any hope for GC. The Fender IPO? ...the initial numbers do not support a positive outcome and the sudden inexplicable price increases launched a huge red flag here...aren't artificial price increases used by unscrupulous companies to give the appearance of potential profitability that *is not* there???

Remember, a lot of what we buy comes from cheap foreign labor and cheap labor imported to America. We should be seeing price decreases across the board, not price increases in a desperate attempt to build value into an IPO that's just not there.

Again, I think Fender should start from scratch. File for bankruptcy or reorganization. And then...as Obama asks us to do... "live within your means." ...if you think another series of loans will save Fender...I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you! Cash only, please. No loan deals. No IPO's. This is a private sale! lol!

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"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a Conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists. The American mind simply has not come to a realization of the evil which has been introduced into our midst." J. Edgar Hoover

Because Squier = Sales. At my shop Squiers outsell Fender by a factor of 10 to 1. No joke. And not all Squiers are crap, the higher end ones are actually pretty nice and once in a while they're screw up and make a really good one.

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