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you can save the world with your guitar one love song at a time it's just better, more fun, easier with a fender solid body electric guitar or electric bass guitar.

Whooaaa, hold on to your horses, guys! Let's take a calm looksey at some figures before we throw in the towel, shall we?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/bl ... stry-facts

Read this and discover that the music industry is actually growing, despite the global economy collapsing. Sales are more or less stable, publishing revenue is growing (this probably means music is used more in TV, computer games and film?), and digital music sales are up as well. Here's data for the data hungry - Very interesting stuff in there, BTW. http://grabstats.com/statcategorymain.asp?StatCatID=9

To be fair, the average Joe doesn't percieve there being "one big movement" any more at this moment, but that's good! - the pie has been split up into smaller pieces. However, I think that's just showing us the arrogance and laziness record labels used to have, when they pushed the one "in" act in their stable. Sure, I understand the monetary savvy behind their actions, but who would expect everyone to like the same thing, forever, always? Tastes have diversified, and the market has followed.

When Elvis hit the scene, there wasn't much out there for a young audience, making him a big star. Later, alternatives were born in the rise of The Beatles and Rolling Stones, and so forth - it's natural that things evolve. If it were for the labels, we'd all be listening to the same few acts, it's simpler for them.

And as for the definition of pop music: A few hundred years ago a guy named Mozart was a huge pop star. So? Are we sad about that too? Not really.

When I do get really down about the music industry, I stick on some Wilco. They deserve to be played as much as anyone.

So guys, chill out, tune up, and play. All this lamenting without reason is not good for ya!

Cheers

Nutter

A man of taste and distinction

Id add that most of the best scenes have been created from the ground up, the labels just cashed in on it.

Saying that, i want to swim in my own money like scrooge mcduck in the intro to the old `duck tales` cartoons, so i kinda wish the business was as it was. I think its evened out in the sense that more people can have their music heard now, but i also think its like the rest of society now in that the percentage of those who make serious money has shrunk and been made even more extreme.

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`I prefer not to listen to music that I can't rip off or improve on` - Ian Dury

I'm going to politely disagree with this, though the point I'm trying to make is one of nuance, not mere numbers. At a glance these figures seem to being saying that everything is rosy, but that is to misread them:

It is true that download sites rake in plenty of cash. But that is money that is then largely removed from the music business, not recirculated. Everyone knows how tiny a percentage of the cost of a single download trickles back to the band: that was true in the past of record sales too, but in the past the rest of the revenue went to labels, studios, promoters, record shops and so forth. Now it goes into the profits of digital conglomerates such as Apple who have no intrinsic interest in furthering music and put nothing back into it. Their enormous revenue is lost to the music world.

There are many criticisms to be made of how the huge record labels of the past behaved, some of them legitimate, some not. However, crucially what they did when they worked well was to build talent, nurture it, promote it, market it, give it a trajectory, and continue to work its back-catalog years and decades after creative energies had dissipated. For all the complaints musicians habitually made about the record industry, often with justification, without the structure and raw money the big companies provided there simply would not have been an Elvis, a Beatles, a Pink Floyd, a Led Zeppelin, a Stevie Ray Vaughan or for that matter the punk and New Wave scenes of the '70s (regardless that the labels were part of what they thought they were rebelling against).

Absolutely none of that is done by iTunes. They contribute nothing, they simply remove cash from the industry.

It is perfectly true that it is not all down to the internet. The classical music business was steadily collapsing when the net was in its infancy. Today the huge classical labels have ceased to exist in all but names on back-catalogs of steeply declining value. Such classical recording as still happens is done by energetic but very small companies such as Naxos and Chandos. Just the other day I heard the boss of Naxos, Klaus Heymann, talking at length: he said that margins are so small it is now simply impossible ever to recoup the cost of an orchestral recording and so they do them only occasionally as loss-leaders. He said you may turn a profit on, say, a solo lute record but that's about it, and he deeply lamented that these days there is no longer money to build an artist long-term the way the industry did for most of the 20th century. The classical music business is a miniaturised rump of its former self.

That may seem irrelevant, but the classical business is a decade and a half ahead of the pop/rock one, and what's happened there is a weathervane for what is taking place right now throughout the rest of the music industry.

But it's not only about business. It is about the position of music in the wider world.

As I said before, I don't for one second think music will die or any such melodramatic nonsense. As others have said, it's about evolution, and it certainly is not all bad.

Personally, I don't give a tinker's cuss for "movements" in music and I'm delighted that people can do their own thing, mix genres, use the net to interact directly with their audience and bring them together in smallish venues. And I should think there will still be stadium acts in the future, for what they’re worth.



Fragmentation can be fun and vibrant and that is good. However, it is also a certain signifier of an art form that has lost its direction, its relevance and its meaning. And that is most definitely true of music.

Conspicuous evidence of it is the deeply backward looking nature of every fragmented section of the music world. When Buddy Holly, Elvis, The Beatles, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin and Lynyrd Skynyrd - or the BeeGees for that matter - did their thing they may have had their heads full of musical forms that preceded them but they made sounds that had never been heard by human ears before. (Which is equally true of Mozart, by the way.) It is impossible to say that of anyone during the last 25 years.

Nirvana, who this thread was about, were a punk re-tread, and making that a legitimate thing to do may be their most significant "contribution". Personally, I'm much into the likes of Joe Bonamassa, Matt Schofield and similar - but then the uncomfortable truth is I like them exactly because they sound like a polished up version of the music I listened to decades earlier. Original they are not. The entire blues-rock scene is today what trad jazz or swing bands were to our parents' generation: a charming little closed world of diehard enthusiasts hurting nobody and ignored by everyone else.

That doesn't matter - but the same is true of every other area of music too. The teenagers on this Forum are kidding themselves if they think today's indie bands or even rappers are doing anything meaningfully different to those of 20 years ago. And the most worrisome thing is that the big profitable bit of the music world is represented by all those ___'s Got Talent and ___ Idol shows around the world - and even they spend their whole time rehashing the pop, soft rock and easy listening of the past.

Music is not over and never will be. But it has ceased to be THE crucial, defining art form of its time, as it was within the living memory of many of us here. That doesn't much matter; nobody died. But it's a pity.

...Long time since we had one of Ceri's extended typing exercises. Don't worry, it won't become a habit.

Cheers - C

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We want more of those, to be honest. They are totally worth the effort.

I understand your point and agree. Overall, I'd add something which is true for other industries as well; which is the impudent thought that, on average, the public don't know what they want. This makes it very hard for real super-talent (and I'm talking Mercury here, or Bowie, or even Elvis) to be discovered in the first place. Which is why we need agents.
Quite frankly, the public tastes are highly untempered. What I am trying to say is that it seems to me that most of the time, a song gets a million clicks on youtube because it has the sufficient amount of bling/ladies/cars, or, alternatively, uncommon hairstyles/CGI/stunning landscapes in them - not because the actual musical content is groundbreaking. Yet the majority of the public lap it up with great enthusiasm. What I'm saying is: If there is no "pre-selection" or "recommendation" by musically learned guides (think John Peel, for instance), anything presented to us which gives an inkling of another popular thing previously consumed will work our senses as an "Avatar" if you will, a virtual substitute of the thing we loved and knew.
So regardless of how the distribution of the final product is dealt with, I am hoping that the role of the agent, as a connoisseur, giver of impulses and flowerbed for new ideas will stay pivotal. I don't mean this in a dictatorial sense. All I'm saying is, when you're in the jungle, and you want to find a way, you need a guide.

That aside, yes, it's been a long while since there's been anything really fresh in the business. And with the "media bull__t", as George Harrison said in his later years, satisfying our demand and desire for consumable art, it's kind of obvious why the music industry as such has lost it's role as a main impulse giver. But I'm not too worried. As Ceri said, music is not over nor ever will be. Plus humans get bored quite quickly, so at some point someone will sit down and find a noise which has not yet been found before. And if it's a good day for music, we'll get to find out. Hopefully.

Cheers -

Nutter

P.S.: One thing I'd like to know is: Why do we believe that rockstars/popstars need to be filthy rich? If they can make a living producing their art, should that not be aspirational enough? Because if that is the case, it means that enough people support your work to let you survive. I am not saying I am for or against this thought, but I am trying to point out that especially in hard times, it is a proof of good craft when you don't have to hold down a day job.

I'd also like to point out that SK's opinion on rap is totally invalid. Without poetic elements, most songs would have no real structure in terms of lyrics. Also, there are tons of dirty rock songs. Before you decide to be a bigot, educate yourself.

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1984 Squier Contemporary Stratocaster
1986 Peavey Envoy 110
1967 Kingston Acoustic

personally i don't care for rap, but it has nothing to do with lyrics

and if you want dirty rock songs check out everything by "Steel Panther"

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Actually, poetics could effect the instrumental parts. You cant really sing over every kind of instrumental. If lyrics and instrumental parts didn't work together, music would be a huge mess.

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1984 Squier Contemporary Stratocaster
1986 Peavey Envoy 110
1967 Kingston Acoustic

and sound like dubstep

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I really actually have to agree. I can't see all the rage in it. It doesn't pump me up like metal or punk does, and doesn't really sound good when turn up too loud, unlike metal, punk, rap, etc. You can't really cruise to dubstep. With regular metal, punk, or any other kind of general rock, it's a drive through the city during the day. With rap, it's more at night, imagine going through the big city with Regulate by Warren G blasting. It's an awesome thought. I'll add more later, back to class for now.

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1984 Squier Contemporary Stratocaster
1986 Peavey Envoy 110
1967 Kingston Acoustic

I dont think there will ever be a new music movement. The music industry is near death. Rock radio is a thing of the past and record labels arent willing to risk money on unproven talent. So, what they do now is simply look for pop acts that will appeal to tweens and teens and they market the hell out of one song and just hope that that one song will lead to 2, 3 and then hopefully a new pop star is born.

The internet has killed the music scene and you know what...? Maybe Metallica was right! Napster was the beginning of the end for the music industry. Record companies arent looking to sell full albums anymore. They want one hit song after another that they can sell on iTunes for .99

I feel bad for the rock/metal bands of today. Although its much easier to get your music out to the masses via the internet, its still near impossible to gain any mainstream traction.[/quote]

LOL. You can't be serious... The internet has killed music? Independent music is stronger than ever thanks to the interent. It's not that it died, it changed. Y'know, kinda like a movement.[/quote]


Nope, I never said the "internet has killed music" I said it has killed the "music scene" as mentioned by the user who I was replying to.
And I'm very serious when I said the internet killed the rock music scene. Sure, there are a few indie bands that have gained traction, but my point is that there will never be a rock movement that takes hold of the country like movements of the past.

Please tell me the last "movement" in rock music. Seems to me like the last one was the numetal scene that took hold in the mid-late 90's into the early 2000's and it was a minor scene at best. Since then.....nothing beside a failed emo scene that shouldn't even be refered to as a scene. It was just a couple kids dieing for attention. As I said, rock radio is dead and it is (was) rock radio that was responsible for bringing many great artists to the publics attention. Indie bands have easier access to an audience, but without the record industry backing these bands, there will never be a new "scene". And without the record companies backing these bands, they will never be "rock stars" as there were in the past. Rock bands can no longer sell out arena's.....because their music isnt played on the radio.

So, I agree with you that indie bands are in a good position right now to showcase their music, but the vast majority of these bands will never make money. Without touring at large venues, the money will never "roll right in". Most people will either listen to the music for free on YouTube or maybe buy a song or two on iTunes. These bands will continue to struggle to make money and eventually, we will see the indie music world start to downsize as more and more young people realize that theres just no money to be made from producing an album.

This all goes back to my original point that with the current state of the music industry, there will never be another scene and it has everything to do with the internet and the fact that the record companies wont invest money into bands since the music is always free on the internet.[/quote]
Actually, major labels have routinely f***ed over small scenes by dumbing them down and whoring around the bands. See grunge. And you seem to have the ridiculous idea that the money for the band was EVER in record sales. No. The bands make their money from playing shows and people buying merch, which I can assure you from first hand experience, these indie bands have no shortage of. The indie world has only gotten bigger and bigger as profits from record sales have dropped, so you can forget about any downsizing any time soon.


Yes, rock radio is dead. This is not because rock music scenes are dead, but because it is obsolete. With the internet at hand, there is no longer any need to limit oneself to the small playlists of local radio stations.



Oh, and some recent musical movements that come to mind are a garage revival, with branches reaching into psychedelic, power pop, punk, and surf. Post-hardcore has continued to be an amazingly diverse genre. Chillwave is basically brand-freakin new and already gaining A LOT of traction. Folk punk is a huge thing right now, just a guy and a guitar. I could go on and on.

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Favorite bands:

Melvins
The Jesus Lizard
Cows
Big Business
R***man
Minutemen
Flight
Minor Threat
Big Black
Shellac
Karp
Scratch Acid
Wipers
Pixies

Oh, and even if lyrics in a rap song are nothing but sex and violence (though the overwhelming majority of the genre isn't), that doesn't make them bad. The subject matter does not determine whether there can be clever word plays, intricate, multi-syllabic rhyme schemes, difficult flow, etc.. Seriously, like Buxom said, stop being a dick.

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Favorite bands:

Melvins
The Jesus Lizard
Cows
Big Business
R***man
Minutemen
Flight
Minor Threat
Big Black
Shellac
Karp
Scratch Acid
Wipers
Pixies

Didin't think Id ever see the day that I started a 7 page thread... I like it

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In Reference to Blues Legend RL Burnside:
After a heart attack in 2001, Burnside's doctor advised him to stop drinking; Burnside did, but he reported that change left him unable to play.

The indie world has only gotten bigger and bigger as profits from record sales have dropped, so you can forget about any downsizing any time soon.

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(Lost my place while quoting, w/e.)

Eventually, indie will become mainstream, and overproduced. I hate to say it, but with the rate it's growing, it's going to be huge within 10-20 yrs.

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1984 Squier Contemporary Stratocaster
1986 Peavey Envoy 110
1967 Kingston Acoustic

'Indie' rock isn't even indie anymore. Thanks to those morons who go, 'I'm Sah 1ndie cozz I listen ta baNds thaTz N0one'S eva Heard oF!!!' When in actual fact they have a very large fanbase and are signed to well known labels. Determining wheather you like something or not based on it's popularity is a total wank. Honestly, I dont care if Udays Tiger or Ty Segall become the biggest artist on the planet. Just that I, and I'm sure many others wouldn't like it if a bunch of 'people' who eat whatever the media feeds them and pretends it's their favourite food were listening to artist's like that.

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former user radio_friendly_unit_shifter