Touch sensitivity, sag, sustain, over-tones, feedback, and etc. are all components of the electronic guitar signal that sympathetic vibrations work upon to create the liquidity effect.

yeah....whatever....

Utter load of makebelieve. If you got even the 6.3 DCV from the heater circuit back up the guitar you'd know about it. A small amount of DC voltage is enough to kill you.
The only way an amplifier reacts with a guitar is via the speaker on the strings. In other words, feedback. Which happens with any amplifier.

Oh and transistor amps first secured their niche in the market by being more reliable than valve amps.

I really wish people would stop making things up to make themselves feel like their justified in their preferences.

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No no and no

^^^

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Luck won't do it and ignorance can't

George Van Eps.

Smart guy> "The Earth is not flat! The Earth is round!"

Not so smart of a guy> "ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. He will fall off the Earth if he keeps going in that direction, fool."

lol. The smart money was on round!

Conversely, the manner in which sympathetic vibrations work on the tube based signal chain is the essence that guides how all parts of the signal entering and leaving the tube will react. Therefore, a SS vibration sensor or digital impulse must be made that simulates how sympathetic vibrations act on tubes or we'll continue to have sterile, lackluster SS amps as this is the only artificial feature lacking in SS and digital technologies today, as we speak!

"poppy kock."

I understand the skepticism if you're not sensitive to the phenomena!

Mate, I've owned, repaired, built and played through more valve amps than you've seen. Dating from 1959 to 2006 of many formats. I've gigged them since 1992. I like many others on this thread have extensive knowledge of the pro's and cons of valve amplification. And likewise transistor amplification. That extends beyond the bedroom to not only pretty much everywhere you find more than three houses within a mile of each other, in my own nation. But plenty of other countries too. Where you're often presented with some kind of box with a loose collection of components inside that you have to make work for you. Whatever it may be, valve, transistor or two tin cans with a bit of string between them. Also I primarily play music that relies heavily on driven sounds. Where traditionally the difference between valves and transistors is said to be most evident.

The only sympathetic vibration I've ever known was when I hit my thumb with a hammer and someone asked me if I'm ok.
The only liquidity I've ever experienced happened at the bar.

You flit from poetic description presented as esoteric fact, into pseudo science.
Why you need to make such things up to justify your preference is beyond me. You like what you like, it's as simple as that. Be unashamed of what you like.

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...huh? Make things up? No. I guess some people don't feel the sympathetic vibration. Some do.

Like I said, now dat dah cat is out o' dah bag, the technology will be developed and you'll understand what I'm trying to convey directly to you about a *feel* only a sensitive musician would know, I guess, uh huh. yayup.

goin' liquid, i.e., it's the sympathetic vibration a tube amp creates with the guitar and strings creating a more fluid and creative playing state than SS. A SS sensor that acts like a vibrating tube as part of a SS signal chain will dramatically and positively effect the ability to use sympathetic vibration from the amp to enhance sustain, over-tones, feedback, etc.

With respect to how many amps you've repaired...I don't care how many amps you've repaired. But, I still love you so...don't go feeling all hurt and stuff. lol! I've owned a guitar of one kind or another since...1964, an amp and electric guitar and effects since...oh...1973. ...I think I can articulate myself quite clearly about guitars and amps and music, particularly this observation and idea as I am in the midst of discerning most of the mainstream tube and SS amps and effects. I was in a recording studio at the height of tubes and the transition to SS, from 1/2" and 2" tape to laser discs and CD's, and digital recording. I have a state of the art SS amp head and a tube head and effects right here, the sympathetic vibration from the tubes in the tube amp is distinct, the lack of it in the SS amp is distinct. ...I know what I am saying.

Happy 422!

Yes but you seem to miss my point. You are expressing your own justifications based upon preference as fact. Which it is not. This made up, incorrectly applied term of liquidity being a prime example of that. Sympathetic vibration on the other hand is also a nonsense. The only way an amplifier can cause a guitar to react, without harming the user, is via the speaker.

That is fact, not preference, not me seeking to justify my preference. Which incidentally you don't know.

I'm not at all hurt by anything you've said. I'm a little annoyed at the mumbo-jumbo spouted. Someone of limited ability may actually stumble across it when looking for advice and not see it for what it is. A fairytale to needlessly excuse preference. When in fact it's exactly that kind of nonsense that keeps people blind to understanding their equipment. They take on the belief that some kind of mystical interaction takes place between guitar and speaker that could never possibly be explained by mere mortals. Allowing manufacturers to further spout nonsense, increase hype and sell people substandard product for stupid amounts of money.
It keeps prices high, helps manufacturers be lazy and never develop anything new. All you actually need to sound good is time and practice. Not sympathetic vibration or liquidity, whatever they are.

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Great thread. Although I have nothing technical to contribute, it's a good read and an education.
Keep it up gentlemen.
You guys are heaps cooler than Train-Spotters and Trekkies.

I understand what you are saying...you obviously can't comprehend what I'm saying. ...it's a loop of sympathetic vibrations that creates a different feel in the instrument, the simulation of the tube vibration the missing factor in SS, and yes, speakers are a *part* of the equation. You must have missed that further back into the thread, it's a lotta reading!

So, let's just say...I know what I'm saying and you don't comprehend what I am saying and call it a day, or a night if you're on the other side of the rock!

j/k, lol!

I fully comprehend what you're saying and recognize it for what it is. You've spent too much time on the internet, reading guitar magazines and listening to know nothings.

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I don't understand the dispute RCB is saying that the tubes give you a 'liquidity' of tone (which i happen to agree with) liquidity meaning to me a smoothness and expressive tone that can't be found in most SS gear.

That's why amp manufacturers have been employing engineers nik for nigh on the last 40 or 50 years trying to find a SS way of emulating that tone. They haven't found it, yet.

I'm not against SS amps, there have been some good one's, but not many.

Until we reach the day and age in the future when folks wax lyrical about "do you remember that tranny amp from 2012? man that thing sounded incredible!" then most folks will agree that tubes are far superior

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Luck won't do it and ignorance can't

George Van Eps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2AaWrLTFvA

Not bad for a cheapo mosfet head and bad home recording gear. Though my home playback (which I'm now hooked up to) is ace. A little hybrid amp and a couple of '81 Sony speakers that aren't anything super special but just sound nice.

This crowd made a mosfet head a couple of years ago that sounds as good as anything I've heard.
Until you've played every transistor, digital and mosfet head in existence you can't make such claims.
All of this thread seems to be preference based on little experience. Confounded by typical guitar buyer rhetoric that we've been fed so much of that we can't help but repeat. Like a bunch of brainwashed imbeciles.

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Cheers
Steve

I think a better way to describe what I perceive to be "liquidity" while playing a tube amp has to do with tube microphincs:

"All tubes will exhibit some degree of microphonics. Microphonics do not mean that a tube is unusable. You just have to screen them a little closer and determine where they are best suited for use. Input pre-amps are the most sensitive areas of the amplifier. When used in this application most tubes will generate some noise if you tap on them with a pencil during operation. Keep in mind that doing so can actually damage the tube and make it more microphonic or cause it to fail if you hit it real hard. Although they are screened prior to shipment a tube is an electromechanical device and can be damaged during shipment. A microphonic tube will ring, howl or produce general feedback problems. It will be more noticeable at louder volumes or when used in close proximity to a speaker, typically in combo amps."
http://thetubestore.com/12ax7review.html

The reason SS sounds sterile is the lack of simulation of tube microphincs, tube microphonics being influenced heavily by the sympathetic vibrations from within the playing area...the speakers, the guitar body and strings, etc., everything in the playing area will vibrate with or against the tubes.

SS needs to make a transistor that acts as a tube microphonics sensor to simulate tube microphonics to create a convincing tube feeling and sounding SS amp.

I'd shed heavy, hot tube amps for a SS amp that can simulate everything about a tube amp including tube microphincs, which is the only thing missing from SS where I'm sitting.

...soon, we'll see an adjustment for tube microphonics in SS amp simulators to adjust and tailor the saturation, type, and amount of the room vibrations the sensor picks up like a tube would from the room where the amp sits, us being able to adjust the "liquidity" of the feel and sound to facilitate ease of expressive, dynamic playing via enhanced sustain, over-tones, and feedback where you can use a delicate touch or gritty dig in a relaxed state like you can with a real tube amp but not a SS amp. Done.

If that don't makes sense...