This is true. However, as of today's technology, the tube amp yields dramatically better feel and creativity -- from my experiences, a heightened state of liquidity in playing and creativity not a achievable with SS. I deprived myself of tubes for a while to see if I could duplicate the feel of a tube via SS, but no go, finally figuring out why...there's no simulation of sympathetic tube vibrations in SS that creates an atmosphere and tone conducive to dramatically heightened playing a creativity!

No doubt about it tubes are the thing. Yes a good player will sound ok through most things but the point is they don't want to! the vast majority of top pickers love the tone and response from tube amps and very few play tranny amps.

That's the whole reason Fender and Marshall are who they are; it's their tube amps that are coveted for that holy grail of tone. Tube amps will shine working at levels that will destroy a SS amp as well.

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Luck won't do it and ignorance can't

George Van Eps.

pre-historic audio-man read: tube amps = good, solid state amps = bad . ugh?

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you can save the world with your guitar one love song at a time it's just better, more fun, easier with a fender solid body electric guitar or electric bass guitar.

Permission granted!

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Good Vibes To Y'all!



Screamin' Armadillos
Texas Roadhouse Music
Guitar/Slide Guitar/Harp/Vocals

Ok.. Well then you're comparing apples to pears. Either way, you can't turn Latex to oil anymore than you can turn watercolor to oil. But I'd be willing to bet my last dollar that someone has painted something using Acrylic that you thought was oil.

Let me ask you this.. IF what you're saying actually happened and someone created a SS amp that could MIMIC a tube amp, would you really be satisfied? Or would you still say tube amps are the kings of the liquid Narnia you covet?

Keep in mind, it makes no difference to me what you personally like to work with. And I love tube amps too.

Live, I use a SS amp 95% of the time. The reason is (contrary to what Gorgon believes), tubes amps are more fragile than SS. Summer is just around the corner, and my band will be playing somewhere between 10-15 shows a month. About 1/2 of those shows will be outdoors in 100+ degrees-F. Tube amps take a serious beating in that kind of heat, especially on a consistent basis. Your tubes don't have very much of a chance a chance to cool down (3-sets a show). A fan does very little in that situation.

I don't think there's one professional on this forum who would disagree with that being the case. SS amps are your workhorses. They become your reliable source when you're a working musician in that situation.

I'm still wondering why you're so Hell bent on this concept. In just about every post Ive read of yours, you mention "liquid" and "sympathetic vibration" over and over again. But I haven't really seen you prove in a scientific manner either one of those concepts. I respect you as a fellow musician and colleague on this forum, but the concept is losing credibility with me without solid evidence and scientific presentation.

If you can give us some audio examples or any kind of scientific proof of the "liquid" and "sympathetic vibration" it would be helpful, otherwise, it just looks like you're egotistically pushing your opinions without displaying an open mind.

I've personally seen UFOs in the skies of Vegas. But it just means that I don't know what they were. It would be up to me to have scientific proof that they were extraterrestrial if I'm going to claim them to be that. If I can't do it, then I just look like a crazy person pushing my opinions on people and catering to my ego more than the reality of what they really could have been or were.

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Of course it is, when the sound coming from the amplifier acts on the strings, that is feedback.

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No no and no

...no. It's more like comparing gmo apples to non-gmo apples.


We won't know the answers to those questions until we try it!



Somebody should develop tube amp coolers until the SS tube sensor simulator is fully developed and released into the mainstream!


You wonder in vein. I'm hell bent on nothing. I'm just promoting a discovery to get the technology developed -- the Fender forum is the purrrrfect place to do this due to the nature of the technology, correct?!


...liquidity is a discernible, tangible change in the vibral atmosphere of a room that's created via sympathetic vibrations. It's kind of like when a women gently touches you in a state of passion, the whole electricity of the room changes. If you haven't felt liquidity...I don't know what to say! To me, it's plain as day, immediately noticeable.



Sorry, I don't have the lab equipment necessary to do that!


I saw UFO's over the California skies. Years later, I saw photos of the same ...things, the photos from around the world! So, what I saw, other people saw. I have no idea what I saw but it wasn't anything I've ever seen on planet Earth! ...now you're comparing lead bricks to lace. Whereas UFOs are a bit tricky to prove and disprove, sympathetic vibrations and how they react upon a room can be easily discerned. That it hasn't been discerned don't mean it don't exist! My discovery/observation is provable and not off the wall! But, I appreciate your skepticism if you as a musician haven't noticed the state, yet.

The state of liquidity is not feedback. Feedback is enhanced by sympathetic vibration, however. Feedback is a separate, mechanical/physical reaction. Liquidity is a state of heightened sustain, over-tones, and feedback that together form an energetic, vibrating atmosphere/energy field that creates a heightened sense of touch and creativity. The best analogy I can use is...it's like flipping a zero gravity switch and you start floating effortlessly. It's like the sympathetic vibrations create a slippery cushion -- liquidity, goin' liquid!

Really... this is all a load of nonsense you're making up as you go along, isn't it?

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No no and no

Thank you, kind Sir! I shall try to not use your words in vain!

...and to RC: I don't think your concept of "liquidity" has solely the origin in "sympathetic vibrations" (i.e. harmonic feedback, or whatever one may call it). You get a lot of beautiful harmonics out of a valve, too, which I am not sure can be created using a transistor. Those harmonics may also be what you experience as "liquidity". And, as we know, valve harmonics are down to the fact that the valve itself isn't a perfect system. If it were perfect, we'd hear the original PU signal, only louder. How boring!
There are also mighty differences in valve amps themselves, different concepts give different results. Imagine a single-ended amp vs. a full-blown Mesa-stack. If you're into weird and wonderful harmonics, the single-ended one will make you drown in them.

It's just my opinion, of course, and I'm not an expert.
On a side note, I'm really glad this thread exists. It's fascinating and refreshing. I was so sick of the old tonewood debates.
But seriously now. I like this thread.

Cheers

Nutter

^^^ Nah! not so, it's the complete truth. Tubes produce a totally different waveform than SS amps. SS produce square wave distortion when they clip which is perceived by the ear as harsh and unmusical and not as responsive to pick attack etc. whereas tubes when they saturate produce even order harmonics that sound creamy and smooth and musical and that interact better with regard to pick dynamics.

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Luck won't do it and ignorance can't

George Van Eps.

+1, and a simple solid state sensor or digital algorythm that mimics the sympathetic vibrations that permeate a tube during play will resolve the "harsh", "square", "unmusical" state SS currently creates!

I guess some people are more sensitive to it than others! However, enough people have aired their disdain of SS to warrant the fix -- the use of a synthesized and, or digitized impulse of a tube experiencing sympathetic vibrations during play -- the round wave of the sound that positively effects pick attack, and etc. eliminating the harsh square wave of SS, which to me and obviously others, adversely effects pick attack, and etc.!

Couldn't you get a figure 8 pattern mic, stick it in the middle of the room, run that and your guitar through a small mixer, and the combined signal of that into the SS amp? That way you could mix in as much "looped" or "fed back" sound from the produced frequency as you wished. Just a thought to perhaps satisfy Mr RCB on his quest for the most liquid soli ever

No idea if it'd work. But worth a try anyway.

Cheers

Nutter

It works. But...to get the full effect, you need multiple microphone fields, not just a static, singular plane loop, multiple figure 8's in a circular field, you're creating a musical hologram of a room -- dimensional sympathetic vibration room impulses -- yet another enhancement of this new technology!

The thing is evolving already!

Good thinking!

To recapitulate...

1. A SS sensor or digital impulse that mimics sympathetic tube vibrations that enhance the feel of the playing state, i.e., simulating the round waved warmth of a tube state.

2. Digital impulses that simulate circular, dimensional microphone arrays that further enhance playing and recording in the SS and tube environments.

Happy 421!

Over 35yrs ago I was torn between a tube McIntosh, or solid state Crown amp and pre amp for my home stereo system. I took my favorite classical and rock albums to the store and listened to both thinking the choice would be easy. Maybe I could tell a difference, maybe not, neither one was a clear favorite. I bought the Crown. Years later I thought it would have been better to have purchased the McIntosh. After all, audiophiles favor tubes, don't they? But, when I turned the old Crown on today after reading this post, I realized all I've done to hear great sound over the years was hit the ON button. I wonder how many times the McIntosh would have been in the shop as the tube sound degraded, and how much money I would have now spent on it. There's something to be said for transistors. It not like your looking for cutting edge performance and wondering if you should buy a Ducati or a Harley.

In the tube amp world that I live in,it's always been described as "touch-sensitive",where the amp responds to the dynamics of your playing,"sag" is another of these terms that refers to the tube rectifier vs. ss rectifier....I understand these because I hear the results. Sorry but "sympathetic vibrations and liquidity" haven't entered my performance experience yet.
And Jah my friend,I respect your experience and the shear total number of gigs that you play is impressive,but I have to disagree "somewhat" with your statement that tube amps are more fragile than SS amps in outdoor situations...I fully understand that the heat you're playing in is detrimental to a hot tube amp if not allowed to cool a bit...but we also have summers with heat in the mid to upper 90s/100 degrees,coupled with a high % of humidity,the air gets thick and heavy,we can play 4 hour shows with vintage Fenders and they do just fine,we put them on standby during 1 or 2 breaks to cool a bit....granted the environment is different,but I mention it to be informative.
This is not to say that a vintage tube amp owner should discard any maintenence,these amps will perform if kept in good shape,they're not for the inexperienced musician who chunks his gear around like cheap luggage.
Now our fellow forumite Arjay deals with the desert heat and exclusively gigs with tube amps,it would be interesting to hear his views and experience.