Tube vs Solid State - A double blind test

RCB-CA-USA · **Joined:** Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:31 am **Posts:** 1281

The_Nutter wrote:

Also, hailing VOX as inventors of what you (RCB) called for makes little sense. You wanted an algorithm-based sensor which simulates a valve. VOX put a valve in a SS circuit. That's not the same, is it?

Who's up for lunch? I am! ;-)

ah heh hemmmmm..."Vox clearly understands"...nobody said nuttin' bout Vox inventing. They obviously realized that the constant current of a tube creates reactive feedback, which livens the room and enhances feel.

I want a sensor that acts like how a tube would feel to somehow inject those sympathetic vibrations into the signal chain to "liven" up the playing area to improve the feel and get the constant current reactive feedback going in SS!

What Vox did was compensate for that certain something tubes do.

I'd rather lug around a lightweight durable amp that completely simulates the tube experience than lug around a heavy, fragile tube amp, that's all!

...I had no idea that I'd get clobbered for it.

And, no offense taken. I like your posts! Sometimes we all gloss over something when we are in a hurry and, or not up-to-par!

Amerigo · **Posted:** Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:28 am

RCB-CA-USA wrote:

I want a sensor that acts like how a tube would feel to somehow inject those sympathetic vibrations into the signal chain to "liven" up the playing area to improve the feel and get the constant current reactive feedback going in SS!

There's a CD player by the german company "T+A" (no pun intended) that adds even-order harmonic distortion to a pure signal. It's switchable and most people prefer it over the clean signal. And there are CD players that have a 6922 (EC88) tube in the output stage. I have one of these, sounds really analogue :-)

So I think what you suggest can't be too difficult to achieve. But if you spend big bucks on a modeling amp (that's what you suggest) you could just as well buy the original tube amp. I think AxeFx tried to do what you want to achieve, but it ain't that simple.

Cheers

David

Rebelsoul · **Posted:** Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:27 am

The_Nutter wrote:

Gorgon wrote:

I repeat again: how can i do a cap job on my amp when i supposedly, according to you, know nothing about tube amps. How is that possible that i did that? How is it possible that i know what pin of the 12AX7 is the control grid and what pin is the plate and what pin is the cathode and the heaters, and the correct procedure for draining the amp. I don't understand how you can make an accusation like that.

If I were ever tempted to meddle with an amp, I'd, well, look it up on the internet! :shock:

Anyhow. I can confirm what Niki said about the VOX VT-series, it is marketing hype, and yours truly bought one a few years back. It's a VT30. Nothing special, and way too many FX on there. But I'd like to think the valve gives it a certain something… who knows.

Also, hailing VOX as inventors of what you (RCB) called for makes little sense. You wanted an algorithm-based sensor which simulates a valve. VOX put a valve in a SS circuit. That's not the same, is it?

Who's up for lunch? I am! ;-)

Cheers -

Nutter

yeah,that's the first thing somebody does in this age of the internet...they look it up and then claim that they "know what they're doing" after they've successfully survived their journey into the chassis of an amp....anybody can find out what a 12ax7's internals connect to the pinout,anybody can find out how to discharge caps....and then it's a matter of knowing which end of the soldering iron to hold....even kids learn to stay away from sticking forks into electrical outlets,and that something hot will burn you. :shock:

And anyone can type words to make claims about what they can do,but when they start making claims that there's no difference in NOS tubes and new production tubes and that a fool and his money are soon parted..."that speaks volumes." :mrgreen:

As far as getting a good buzz and coming up with claims about what they hear in the sound of an amp and how it could be made to make superior SS amps....well,musicians have had THC induced audio "revelations" for decades. :lol:

It's breakfast time for me Nutter,I've been on musician time and night and day can get reversed. :lol:

Jah Soldier · **Posted:** Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:46 am

Rebelsoul wrote:

It's breakfast time for me Nutter,I've been on musician time and night and day can get reversed. :lol:

+1,000,000. Tell me about it!! It's been getting me too and I can't say I like it very much. Just comes with the territory. It's beautiful these days in Vegas and I'm sleeping half way through them.

No joke, last month we played a show where our band didn't hit the stage til 3AM!! It was a nightmare to get my days back on track after that.

mhowell · **Joined:** Wed May 25, 2011 12:45 pm **Posts:** 1169

nikininja wrote:

RCB-CA-USA wrote:

But still, now we have a technical explanation for what I was trying to describe to everybody; *and*, it confirms my thinking that the missing link in SS is a SS sensor that acts like a tube!!!

yo yo!!!

I have A+ Certification, BICSI Certification, but I am not an electrician or amp technician or an acoustic engineer, which is why I had a bit o' trouble trying to explain this, at first. Now, we got some technical electrical gee-tar terms to work with here -- constant current reactive feedback, goin' liquid!

Sorry mate that is not technical explanation. It's sales hype.
I can understand your preference for your amplifier, I'm not arguing against it in the slightest. You'll find on a search of these boards plenty of times where I've stated that being as comfortable as possible with your gear will make you play better.
If you feel liquid, then yeah as a description of your personal playing experience, I can go with that.
As for sympathetic vibration the amp causing the guitar to react, I can't in all honesty agree with that. Unless it's feedback. Amplifiers are strictly "Source goes in here (input) and comes out here (speaker) affairs. Nothing and I mean absolutely nothing goes back up the cable to the guitar. If it did, the amplifier would be taken off the market.
Even the guitar pickup provides the miniscule amount of current that is sent to the amplifier to read.
It is kind of like a reverse electromagnet. On an electromagnet where a coil of wire is wrapped around a ferrous metal. Then when an electricity is fed through the coil the ferrous metal becomes a magnet causing movement of nearby ferrous metal objects.
A guitar pickup is a coil of wire wrapped around a magnet. Then when a nearby ferrous metal object (the guitar string) is moved, it creates an electric charge.
Which then goes to the amplifier.
It's all DC, one way only.

If you mean that there are no points of feedback to the pickups via the signal chain then you are correct. However, DC simply means that the frequency is zero and the direction is constant. The vibrating guitar strings induce an AC current in the coil of the pickup. The AC component is whatever note/s is being played plus their respective harmonics and any other associated noise and distortion. (Yes, there's noise and distortion even from the pickups though it may be very low compared to the main frequency components)

mhowell · **Joined:** Wed May 25, 2011 12:45 pm **Posts:** 1169

RCB-CA-USA wrote:

I want a sensor that acts like how a tube would feel to somehow inject those sympathetic vibrations into the signal chain to "liven" up the playing area to improve the feel and get the constant current reactive feedback going in SS!

Have you tried Pritchard amps?

Be sure to check out his tech talk and his article on audio myths.

Maybe Pritchard has what you're looking for.

WARNING: They're expensive amps!

Gorgon · **Posted:** Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:56 pm

Rebelsoul wrote:

And anyone can type words to make claims about what they can do,but when they start making claims that there's no difference in NOS tubes and new production tubes and that a fool and his money are soon parted..."that speaks volumes." :mrgreen:

Still waiting. Are you not embarrassed, mouthing off and accusing someone of something and being 100% wrong? I would be if i were you. if i were in your shoes i would have apologised but you obviously were not brought up very well and are one of these know it all types who hate to admit when you're wrong.

As far as internet searching i think you'd know a lot more about that than me. No i haven't ever had any tech knowledge off the net i have however studied a lot of amp books and gained a lot of knowledge from them.

But then that's not the issue. The issue is you accused me of knowing nothing about amps which is patently wrong. When are you going to apologise for your mistaken assumptions?

Basically if you won't issue a public apology on here for making wrongful assertions then it shows you up for what you really are. You make assertions without knowing about the person you're talking about, basically because you like to hear yourself.

Apologise for your wrongful remarks you made, or do you not have it in you?

Amerigo · **Posted:** Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:24 am

@Gorgon: what is the english expression if someone totally lost his tracks and is standing the mud? I'm not english native, so I don't know the expression.

Cheers

David

Screamin' Armadillo · **Posted:** Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:01 am

Amerigo wrote:

@Gorgon: what is the english expression if someone totally lost his tracks and is standing the mud? I'm not english native, so I don't know the expression.

Cheers

David

We call it "Spinning Your Wheels"

mhowell · **Joined:** Wed May 25, 2011 12:45 pm **Posts:** 1169

Gorgon wrote:

Rebelsoul wrote:

And anyone can type words to make claims about what they can do,but when they start making claims that there's no difference in NOS tubes and new production tubes and that a fool and his money are soon parted..."that speaks volumes." :mrgreen:

Still waiting. Are you not embarrassed, mouthing off and accusing someone of something and being 100% wrong? I would be if i were you. if i were in your shoes i would have apologised but you obviously were not brought up very well and are one of these know it all types who hate to admit when you're wrong.

As far as internet searching i think you'd know a lot more about that than me. No i haven't ever had any tech knowledge off the net i have however studied a lot of amp books and gained a lot of knowledge from them.

But then that's not the issue. The issue is you accused me of knowing nothing about amps which is patently wrong. When are you going to apologise for your mistaken assumptions?

Basically if you won't issue a public apology on here for making wrongful assertions then it shows you up for what you really are. You make assertions without knowing about the person you're talking about, basically because you like to hear yourself.

Apologise for your wrongful remarks you made, or do you not have it in you?

It's never a good Idea to take anyone's forum comments or opinions (even your own) to seriously. It's a trap that we all get caught in on occasion.

Amerigo · **Posted:** Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:54 am

Screamin' Armadillo wrote:

We call it "Spinning Your Wheels"

Thanks a bunch, I learn something here every day

Cheers

David

Gorgon · **Posted:** Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:05 am

mhowell wrote:

It's never a good Idea to take anyone's forum comments or opinions (even your own) to seriously. It's a trap that we all get caught in on occasion.

That's true, but i'm only asking for an acceptance that he was wrong in what he said. I'm not a pro amp tech however i do have the required knowledge to work on my own stuff, i'm simply wanting him to take responsibility for his comments and admit they were a mistake.

Anyway he won't do it so.....

Rebelsoul · **Posted:** Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:45 am

Gorgon wrote:

mhowell wrote:

It's never a good Idea to take anyone's forum comments or opinions (even your own) to seriously. It's a trap that we all get caught in on occasion.

That's true, but i'm only asking for an acceptance that he was wrong in what he said. I'm not a pro amp tech however i do have the required knowledge to work on my own stuff, i'm simply wanting him to take responsibility for his comments and admit they were a mistake.

Anyway he won't do it so.....

You haven't taken resonsibility for all the demeaning remarks you made towards people who believe NOS tubes are better than new production...your remarks were meant to make people who think that way look as fools,with "an overactive imagination"...then you took offense to what I said,after several of us had given you our observations,from our experiences.
After your pride was injured,you claimed to have used and taken care of tube amps for some 30 odd years...surely in that time frame you had to have bought and replaced new tubes,and from your location I would think you had readily access to the fine European tubes with brand names like Mullard,Telefunken,Amperex,and Philips etc.
Now do you expect me and all of the rest here to believe that in your tube amp experience that those tube brands were no better than the tubes coming from China,Russia and other countries?...REALLY!!??
That to me says you don't know what you're talking about or you have a set of tin ears....and disagree with most anybody who uses and buys tubes today....even the people who sell new tubes!
Then you try to goad me into an apology because you think I was wrong about you,by making more insults and saying that I "wasn't raised right"... :shock:

I'll say this again,NO APOLOGY!...and you can wait for one till hell freezes over.

Gorgon · **Posted:** Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:18 am

Rebelsoul wrote:

You haven't taken resonsibility for all the demeaning remarks you made towards people who believe NOS tubes are better than new production...your remarks were meant to make people who think that way look as fools,with "an overactive imagination"...then you took offense to what I said,after several of us had given you our observations,from our experiences.

First of all i never targeted anyone personally like you have done, i stated an opinion that's all. You then started insulting me by shouting that i knew nothing about amps, which was a false accusation which you refuse to apologise for. Which again says much about you as a person.

Rebelsoul wrote:

That to me says you don't know what you're talking about or you have a set of tin ears....
I'll say this again,NO APOLOGY!...and you can wait for one till hell freezes over.

Again another insult. Tin ears that's a good one. Well irrespective of that, what has that to do with me maintaining my own amps? You made a stupid crass comment because you like opening your mouth for people to hear you talk your rubbish. An attention seeker in other words.

I repeat again for about the fourth time: I've worked on my amp in the last few days replacing the filter caps and fitting a new driver PI tube. How can i do that if i don't know anything about amps? This is the point i'm making; you make an accusation that is wrong and false and won't apologise for it. This, as i say, says much about you as a person; not willing to own up or take resposibility for your own actions being the thing here.

This has nothing to do with tubes, it's about you making false accusations and then not having the balls to admit you were wrong.

The_Nutter · **Posted:** Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:33 am

We get it, Gorgon. I don't think Rebelsoul and you will be able to sort this out in public any time soon, so why don't we set this peeing contest aside and you two sort this out in private messages like gentlemen, hmm? That way we can free up this thread for positive discussion of the matter at hand: valves vs transistor amps, Thankyou very much.

Now to the guys out there who use valve pedals with SS or valve amps: does that work for you as a fully blown valve amp replacement? I seem to remember Ceri has a Blackstar pedal with a valve in it, and I know the Hughes & Kettner tubeman sounds quite nice as well… any comments on these gadgets?

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Tube vs Solid State - A double blind test

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