It's not a placebo effect. An amp like a Mesa which is very transparent to tube changes makes for good examples. I promise you, if you were using their recommended Mesa SPAX7 in V-1 of one of those amps, and you swap it for a RCA 12ax7a long-plate, not only will you hear the difference, it will hit you like a truck.

I don't take my NOS tubes on the road. I swap to Sovtek LPS for that if I happen to take my Fender at all which is very rare. It's something that still needs careful attention. They need to be compatible with your amp. I haven't had any problems with them in my Fender so far however.

My NOS tubes are used mainly for studio work. However, I use more than one amp in the studio as well. There's also a new song we recorded where the solo is done on a Carvin Quad-X plugged directly in the board. This is pretty much what it looks like when I record.





I can only assume you're talking about those who want to save a buck and shop ebay for them. Something I've done with great success. In the beginning however, I wasn't very educated and had purchased a tube labeled "Mullard", only to find out later that it was in fact an RCA 12ax7. Once I started to study mica shapes, plate characteristics, and manufacturer codes, the task became much easier for me to discern whether someone was selling a correctly labeled tube. If you're really serious about buying correctly labeled tubes, there are respectable sources to buy from that will not rip anyone off. Tubemonger was my favorite to deal with. And even on ebay, Angela Instruments sold me some beautiful NOS Mullard, GE, and Amperex tubes.



These are the types of characteristics that need to be taken in consideration. Once you understand them, it doesn't matter what the label says. It could say "Fartknocker" and I would still know what it really is. In this case it's a Phillips labeled Mullard from the Blackburn plant. Incidentally, Tubemonger WAS describing it as a Mullard in the description. By understanding the characteristics, I'm able to confirm that it really is.



Possibly.. But you're not thinking about one of the greatest aspects of owning many NOS tubes to work with in the Studio (I would literally walk in with a box full). When I had my Mesa, I could make the amp sizzle with a powerful Heavy Metal distortion sound for solos, cut the power for about 10-minutes, and with a 5-minute tube swap, give it a Marshall Brown sound crunch. You can vastly transform an amp using different tubes. My Mesa could also take 6l6 and EL34 power tubes with a flip of a switch and tube swap. Why have just one amp sound in the studio, when one amp can become many different amps with simple tube swaps. That being the case, I believe everyone would hear the differences.

_________________

It's clear to me you don't know the difference and that's OK. Someday you may have the good fortune to find someone willing to show you what that difference sounds like. Hopefully you have the ears to hear it as well.

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...I for one, sure would appreciate the return of intelligent conversation, spirit of assistance and the simple yet effective ignoring of those who can't seem to hang with that...
Best regards,
rob

Sorry mate that is not technical explanation. It's sales hype.
I can understand your preference for your amplifier, I'm not arguing against it in the slightest. You'll find on a search of these boards plenty of times where I've stated that being as comfortable as possible with your gear will make you play better.
If you feel liquid, then yeah as a description of your personal playing experience, I can go with that.
As for sympathetic vibration the amp causing the guitar to react, I can't in all honesty agree with that. Unless it's feedback. Amplifiers are strictly "Source goes in here (input) and comes out here (speaker) affairs. Nothing and I mean absolutely nothing goes back up the cable to the guitar. If it did, the amplifier would be taken off the market.
Even the guitar pickup provides the miniscule amount of current that is sent to the amplifier to read.
It is kind of like a reverse electromagnet. On an electromagnet where a coil of wire is wrapped around a ferrous metal. Then when an electricity is fed through the coil the ferrous metal becomes a magnet causing movement of nearby ferrous metal objects.
A guitar pickup is a coil of wire wrapped around a magnet. Then when a nearby ferrous metal object (the guitar string) is moved, it creates an electric charge.
Which then goes to the amplifier.
It's all DC, one way only.

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No no and no

I think he has finally admitted that "going liquid" is just a personal nickname he has assigned to a specific point on his amp where everything is overdriving at just a particular frequency and intensity.

I've done a similar thing trying to describe certain tones before, and even famous guitarists have done that with their signature sounds. I always called Billy Gibbons' licks with pinch harmonics "squanky"; in my mind, I called the tone SRV got on the neck pickup of his Strat a "pearly" tone (round, rich, deep and multi-dimensioned); Jimmie Vaughan always sounded "spanky" to me...

EVH called his tone "Brown Sound"; Cream-era Clapton had "Woman Tone"; the Ventures defined the splashy "Surf Guitar" sound in the US.

These names may or may not be technically correct, but I can point to a specific song, album or sound that helps define what I mean.

So just as I suggested earlier, RCB is assigning a name or a label to a tone he hears (or achieves) at a particular combination of volume and overdrive...it's not a technical term any more than Eddie's "Brown Sound" is a technical term.

The problem is, he hasn't pointed to a single recording, song, sound or artist that we can use as a reference point...and he just isn't articulate enough to explain that and he's not humble enough to admit it.

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Good Vibes To Y'all!



Screamin' Armadillos
Texas Roadhouse Music
Guitar/Slide Guitar/Harp/Vocals

Naw,they probably do sound good,but you can make them sound better by swapping out different tubes...and they don't even have to be NOS tubes...I have a Fender '57 Deluxe Reissue,bought it brand new,Fender puts a new 12AX7 in the first preamp position,but they tell you in their literature that comes with the amp that the originals had a 12AY7 in that position...and in that owners manual they,(FENDER),tell you that you can change the preamp gain by installing a 12AY7,(lower gain),thus changing the TONE!! and why does Fender not put a 12AY7 in there?...because there's no current new production 12AY7 made....you let some company start producing quality 12AY7s,and if Fender keeps making tweed amps to lure buyers away from boutique builders,there will be 12AY7s in that slot!
clearly you must not have any experience using tube amps or swapping tubes in amps,do you?...you really don't know what you're talking about man.

Well i don't know about that, the bit about not having any experience with tube amps i mean, seeing as i've been playing them since i was 16 and i'm now 49.

Don't be so derogatory either with your comments, you really should engage the grey matter before writing drivel such as this.

So what are you meaning i don't know anything about tube amps? You are clearly talking through your massive inflated ego. Basically you're so far up your own rear end that it isn't even funny my friend.

So seeing as i've been using tube amps and taking care of them for the last 30+ years do you want to take the time now to issue an apology on this forum?

Don't know anything about tube amps? that'll be the same guy who's just recapped and retubed his Marshall amp then and has it running beautifully?

Apology please.

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Luck won't do it and ignorance can't

George Van Eps.

One can be well versed in the number of amps they have used over the years and know how to use tube amps and change tubes. It's another thing entirely to be able to hear subtleties in sound that the average person can't hear. Call it a gift. A gift that you and I apparently don't have.... Yet.

_________________
...I for one, sure would appreciate the return of intelligent conversation, spirit of assistance and the simple yet effective ignoring of those who can't seem to hang with that...
Best regards,
rob

You take what I said and then write several lines insulting me and you want an apology,forget it ,man....I'm not apologizing to you,and I have ten more years playing and using and taking care of tube amps than you do...your experience sure doesn't show in your talking about them.
you can get over yourself,you're not near as smart as you think you are.
oh btw...did you understand anything else I wrote in response to your remarks about new Fender high end amps,and the tubes...or did you just get your feelings hurt?

As contentious as this thread has been, I'm really glad they don't make tubes out of tonewoods like maple or rosewood...this argument would go on for years!

Imagine:
Player 1: "NOS maple EL84 tubes sound much better than these crappy modern rosewood ones!"
Player 2: "You're wrong, mate, I put some brand new rosewood JJ Tesla 6V6 tubes in my amp--they're the best"
Player 3: "I personally prefer an ebony transistor in my amplifiers..."
Players 1&2: "Ebony Transistors? You idiot!"
Player 4: "I have liquid transistors, man! They're made from hemp and patchouli oil...where's my bong?"

_________________
Good Vibes To Y'all!



Screamin' Armadillos
Texas Roadhouse Music
Guitar/Slide Guitar/Harp/Vocals

I never said i was smart in any way, i am simply replying to the slur you made on me by saying i don't know what i'm talking about and that i know nothing about tube amps which is patently wrong as i don't think i'd have the required knowledge to replace filter caps, which involves having knowledge of how to drain the residual voltage from the said amplifier before it is safe to work on it without me getting shocked and possibly dying. Not to mention the checking of the plates of the tubes to find out how much voltage the amp still has in the system before deeming it safe to work on.

So you make a slur against me which is completely untrue and then you don't wish to apologise? It speaks volumes, you make accusations and then can't back them up. Just another expert who thinks he knows better than everyone else.

Explain to me how i can do the work on my amp that i've just told you about if i know nothing about tube amps? You made the accusation, explain it to me how it's possible for me to do that if i know nothing about it?

_________________
Luck won't do it and ignorance can't

George Van Eps.

After all that has been presented here, why do so many people believe "tube guitar amps" sound and respond a little differently? Why do I think I can hear a difference? Even a tube preamp with a SS power amp has tube like qualities. I'm not talking about in a band or in some situation that drowns out any small differences. I'm talking about sitting down in a quiet room and playing a guitar at medium volume. During soft playing they sound very close but when you start picking harder and producing harmonics it becomes apparent. There seems to be a tube sound, or have I been indoctrinated by the hype?

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My ability to spell is in direct proportion to the amount of coffee I've had.

hey gorgon....you made accusations that the people who thought NOS tubes were better were people who "have an overactive imagination plus too much time on their hands and too much money"...that's your words...which to me says we're idiots who don't know what we're talking about.
I replied to you about the new tubes and tweed Deluxe Reissue I own and you never mentioned that...you just take offense that I made the remark that I did.
Wow,you changed filter caps and didn't get killed...and you want me to give you credit and back an accusation that you don't know anything about tube amps!....something you never even made mention of while writing all your "drivel" about people who like NOS tubes....yeah sure,good thing you didn't fry yourself,there's always next time!
I'm not impressed,I've worked with high AC voltage for 36 years,is 7,200 volts high?...what about three times that much?,ever hear of a three phase power line??
so what!
Have I ever changed filter caps and discharged an amp's DCV,yep,many times...and I'm still here dealing with this crap....
No,I'm still not going to apologize to you....and I'm not impressed,and I don't expect you to be impressed by me....so get over it....and read the other replies to your statements,which say the same basic thing,some of us do like NOS tubes and find that they work better....and reply to those guys also.

Quit havin a pissin contest and be nice. Everybody knows what they know from their own experience.

Rebelsoul you started the personal insults by accusing me of knowing nothing about tube amps. That is obviously wrong, if i knew nothing about tube amps then i wouldn't have recapped my Marshall when it needed it plus done my rebiasing and retubing in the last few months.

You made an incorrect accusation and i'm still waiting for an apology for it. I think it's the least you can do when you are so obviously in the wrong here.

Now to the matter of NOS tubes. They may be better, slightly, depending on where they're gotten from, but many times you have people putting below par tubes up for sale because they know the value older tubes have. These valves are not always in pristine condition. If you want to go that route and pay that price that's down to you. I still maintain that you put two amps side by side and compare them in a blindfold test and many if not most people would not be able to tell much difference.

Now on to the issue of changing tubes in an amp. When i bought my Marshall i bought it because i am primarily a rock/blues player and wanted that Marshall distortion. I feel no need to change the valves in my amp to make it into a fender, or whatever other make someone was referring to. If i want the Fender tone i'll buy a champ or a vibroverb or twin or super reverb or whatever. I like my Marshall the way it is and i don't want to be changing tubes all the time for alternative tones. If i want alternative tones i'll buy another amp that gives me what i want.

I repeat again: how can i do a cap job on my amp when i supposedly, according to you, know nothing about tube amps. How is that possible that i did that? How is it possible that i know what pin of the 12AX7 is the control grid and what pin is the plate and what pin is the cathode and the heaters, and the correct procedure for draining the amp. I don't understand how you can make an accusation like that.

_________________
Luck won't do it and ignorance can't

George Van Eps.

wow....whatever you want to think of me go ahead...I'm not making any apology...and yeah....we all can see that you changed your friggin' caps and didn't get killed...so you must know your tube amp inside and out!....but no apology,hoss.
I've had enough of the B/S!