There ya go......that's the biggest factor. 99.99% of the non-musician audience member can't tell the difference nor do they even know or care what a Tube Amp is for that matter.

Seems like this was more of a test of the "feel" of the amp as opposed to it's sound. Being the player and being able to head for those high notes because you notice how the tube amp is reacting is way different than judging a from position of just listening to the output audio from another player.

An example: During his YouTube Kemper Profiling Amp demo, Rob Chapman was profiling a Cornford Carrera. Once finished, the guys in the studio proceeded to A/B the 2 signals in order to test his ears. Chapman was able to correctly identify which was the Cornford and which was the Kemper's Profile each time because he was aware of how the Cornford specifically reacts to trills low on the 6 string when overdriven. The amp basically cuts off half the notes. The profile from the Kemper, while nearly identical, did not behave the same way. The guys who didn't have an axe in their hands, were for the most part clueless.

Usually, in SS design you use a lot of overall negative feedback. It just doesn't work very well with guitar amps, because the transition from "non clipping" to "clipping" is very narrow.

Thanks for this thread guys, it's been a pleasure to read.



I'm doing the same with some old EC88 tubes from the "Lorenz" factory in Germany. They're all microphonic but it's a piece of history. They sit on my MOS-FET amp. Makes the sound more "tubey" due to sympathetic vibration. It's a quantum phenomenon I discovered while feeding Schrödinger's cat.

Cheers

David

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"Humans think they are smarter than dolphins because we build cars and buildings and start wars etc...and all that dolphins do is swim in the water, eat fish and play around. Dolphins believe that they are smarter for exactly the same reasons."

I have my share of microphonic tubes. And yea, I keep them around for historical reasons. But seriously, there's a breaking point with me. When I run across a microphonic tube, it should really be thrown in the trash. Maybe not in it's most beginning stages, but I can't handle too much of it myself.

When I play my distortion solos, for the most part it's a Proco Solo through a JC50, reverb, and some delay. I freaking love that sound and feel. If all of the sudden I play it through my Fender, I can't say it matters all that much. And it NEVER matters to a crowd.

I will say this though.. I brought my HRDV to the biggest recording studio in Vegas. The very same studio that Lady Gaga and Santana have recorded in, and I tubed it in a way that blew away any amp in that place. The engineer even confirmed it. If I run across any amp using modern tubes, I'll F'ing floor it. You have to go NOS if you're going the tube route. I did it years ago in a studio with my Mesa DR vs. a Rivera Knucklehead as well.

Once you understand your valve chain and how to eq it with your NOS valves, that's when you will really understand the importance of tubes in the studio. But I have still found it very hard to find anyone who cares one little bit about any of that outside of tone freak musicians and engineers.

I could play my Marshall MG50 at our next show, and nobody will know the difference.

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I don't throw away bad tubes either,ain't that funny?...not unless they're new production....I just keep the bad ones seperate or write on them with a sharpie,"bad".
Jah....I know what you mean about voicing an amp,my amps turn heads from guys who are into the audio tech thing and tone chasers....they all start asking questions about the tone and what I've done to them.
As fas as the crowd listening,not being able to tell a difference in tubes or SS....I don't care about that...I know the difference....and following my ears makes me a better musician....then to the listeners,well,they just like what they hear.

+1
There's something to be said about being happy/satisfied/comfortable with your sound, your tone and your gear...it makes you play better.

I'm not superstitious, but I understand how a baseball player wanting a particular bat or glove, because it just "feels" right. Likewise, when an amp "feels" right--for whatever reason--the part of your brain that is occupied thinking about whether the piece of equipment is right or not will shut down, and your playing just becomes more fluid.

I recorded some sound samples on my old/new G&L Nighthawk last night, and although the guitar has a great neck, great pickups and awesome tone, I was uncomfortable because the guitar needs to be set up to my desired standard. The action is too high, the strings are heavier than I prefer, and the scale is a little different than my Strat (which I've been playing the most recently)...after a setup with the right strings, I think all will be right, but in the meantime, I was having a hard time shutting off my brain and just playing. I kept analyzing what I wanted to change on the guitar (set up-wise)...and I think it shows in my playing.

...and as for the audience not knowing: Lady Armadillo (a non-musician) made an observation about Stevie Ray Vaughan's two appearances on Austin City Limits. We saw the two episodes back-to-back, and she said, "Was he using different amps or pedals on the second one? His sound was thinner and crunchier..."

It's true--he was using different amps for the two appearances, and her observation was correct--the Marshalls used the second show were brighter and dirtier sounding at points during the show.
While she may not be "typical" in the sense that she lives with an insane person, erm, I mean musician...but she was able to tell there was something different in his setup.

So while they may not say, "Oh, he's using a solid state amp (or digital amp or tube amp or this/that pedal)," I think some people in the audience are aware that things are different...they're just not sure what it is.

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Good Vibes To Y'all!



Screamin' Armadillos
Texas Roadhouse Music
Guitar/Slide Guitar/Harp/Vocals

Crunchier? She really said crunchier? Well I've never met The Lady Armadillo but I already know something important about her: if that's the sort of vocabulary she uses she's been hanging out around guitarists too much!



Fluid, you say? Sounds suspiciously like liquid!

Seconds away, round two. Where's my popcorn?



Cheers - C

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Dangit! I hate it when I accidentally make a point for the guy I'm disagreeing with! 

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Good Vibes To Y'all!



Screamin' Armadillos
Texas Roadhouse Music
Guitar/Slide Guitar/Harp/Vocals

Don't worry. I'm sure we all understand the crucial difference between fluidity and liquidity. Not the same thing at all, everyone knows that.

Cheers - C

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Now the G&L Nighthawk samples sounded like scotch on the rocks to me. Were you instead trying for burbon on the rocks?

More of an unsweetened iced tea with a squeeze of lime juice, but thank you for the compliment...it's a really killer sounding guitar, I remember why it hurt so bad to give up the first one!

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Good Vibes To Y'all!



Screamin' Armadillos
Texas Roadhouse Music
Guitar/Slide Guitar/Harp/Vocals

I personally love both my Fender and Roland amps. And part of the reason I don't care all that much is this. When it comes to playing live, there's always that biggest determining factor. The sound-guy, and monitoring setup.

I can't begin to tell you how many shows I've played where I can barely hear my amp. Where most people get pissy and hold things up so that they get to hear themselves good. I just learned to accept the fact that there are gonna be those times where it's pretty much not going to happen.

There are 7-people in our band. The stage may be small. There might not even be room for my amp stand and I'm going off one middle monitor that has only vocals going through it. Sometimes the keyboard player is going through my monitor as well and he's standing a couple feet behind me. So he could be turned up louder than my guitar in that monitor. There are so many determining factors involved in live settings. A lot of sound guys want my Roland set at around 1, or my Fender at around 1/2. Not even 1 on the volume knob, so they can mic it through the house system.

Usually, I'll walk up front and make sure the band as a whole is coming through evenly. After that, I'll step back to my playing spot, and sure enough, sometimes I can barely hear my amp. But I know our songs well enough to know where to set my boosting and distortion. And just perform. The show must go on regardless.

If I always HAD to hear that "liquid" and "sympathetic vibration". I'd go insane. Instead, I learned to tolerate the inevitable, and trust my chops first and foremost. As long as I can hear the drummer, I'm good to go.

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This forum needs a "Like" button.

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In my opinion Leo Fender had essentially perfected the guitar amplifier by 1964.

She would probably agree with that assessment. I'm not sure why she hangs out with me at all, to be honest...

Yes, she used the actual term, "Chrunchier", which is funny because her normal vocabulary is kinda a mixture of Spanish (Tex-Med dialect) and English. Because of the household she grew up in, She partially thinks in Spanish, especially her adjectives and adverbs (descriptive words). So for her to use that word means she's really listening to me.

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Good Vibes To Y'all!



Screamin' Armadillos
Texas Roadhouse Music
Guitar/Slide Guitar/Harp/Vocals

Mrs C uses the word crunchy, but she's talking about things like honeycomb chocolate bars. When I describe my amp sound as crunchy she falls about laughing and tells me not to be silly.

***

C'mon guys, don't let this great thread dribble to a close. More arguing, please!

Here, I'll be devil's advocate. I've several times read guitar magazine reviewers talking about how the volume of the driver causes the valves to vibrate inside the amp and they claim this contributes to the signal travelling through them. I'm an electronics dunce so it's way above my paygrade to know if what they are saying is real.

So kindly educate me on this.

Cheers - C

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Well i've also heard the output from valves in a good amp referred to as 'thick and smooth as clotted cream.' With jam on a scone, delicious. A good vale amp has the auditory equivalent of that; thick, creamy , tasty and very satisfying This is what RCB is referring to i think when he uses the liquidity term.

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Luck won't do it and ignorance can't

George Van Eps.