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Post subject: Re: SHOCKING NEWS ABOUT FENDER GUITARS
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:21 pm
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Only after my post did I see GuitSlinger's post; although his link didn't work, I will further investigate the claims.

From what GuitSlinger said, however, it seems that Fender at least tried to make things right, as much as possible...

You see, I don't believe (or disbelieve) the first thing I read, see or hear. That way, if I do end up with some egg on my face, I'll be able to admit I was wrong and wash it off before it gets dry and flaky.

BTW, Have you gone to the Forums of other companies who contract Cort to do some manufacturing for them, or are you just attacking the biggest guy on the block?

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Post subject: Re: SHOCKING NEWS ABOUT FENDER GUITARS
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:32 pm
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Screamin' Armadillo wrote:
alvin67 wrote:
I'm not asking anyone to link arms with me. I just think I have a right to inform Fender customers on this issue.

Yes, you have the right...but in light of how biased the article, video and your own comments are, it's debateable if there's an actual "issue" at all.

Quote:
but if this article and video of the workers is false and not true than someone needs to prove it. If so I will change my opinion on Fender

You're using an old political tactic used repeatedly to smear an organization or opponent. You know it's almost impossible to prove a negative.
For example:
Mudslinging Rabble-Rouser: "Mr. Candidate, this article says you're a racist and you beat your wife. How do you respond?"
Candidate: "Well, first of all, neither accusation is true. Secondly, the author of the article has no basis or evidence that either accusation is true. Lastly, the article is on an opposing party's website."
Mudslinging Rabble-Rouser: "But what proof do you have that you're not a wife-beating racist?"
Candidate: "As I said, there is nothing I have done to promote or condone those ideas or prove those charges, so the accusations are not true."
Mudslinging Rabble-Rouser: "But you have no proof that you're not."

After that, anything the Candidate says will seem defensive or self-serving.

What proof do you need?
Perhaps someone could edit the subtitles in the video to say, "Cort was wonderful, the supervisors love me and I love them, and I bless the day I got this job!" I don't know about you, but between the lack of raw video (showing everything the workers said) and (ultimately) the fact that I don't speak Korean, I cannot trust the message on the video.

Did Cort do them wrong? Perhaps.
Do we have any unbiased, balanced evidence that Cort did do them wrong? Not at all.

All we have is a very biased article and video that I have never seen referenced at any other source (including guitar and music magazines/websites, industry magazines/websites, business magazines/websites, etc.). This is the type of information a latter-day hippy such as the editor of Guitar Player Mike Molenda would drool over (I mean that as neither a compliment nor an insult, just as a description)...and this is the first I've heard of it.

So maybe the best retort would be, "Prove the story is accurate and the we will change our opinion about Fender.

PS-If you do decide to get rid of your Fender gear, please contact me. I want a Telecaster with a deep neck profile and/or a hardtail Stratocaster, if you have either.
To be honest I'm not that clever to use the tactics you speak of. Fender is a huge company with financial resources. They could easily prove this wrong and I seriously doubt the people in this video are lying and using fake subtitles but that should be easy to prove by a large company such as a Fender. I am just a tradesman with a H.S education. I have no political agenda. Just don't like to see human beings mistreated. I don't have any of the guitars you mentioned. I have a cheap squire made in Indonesia and an Ibanez made in china and they're not top of the line by any means just all I could afford. It didn't bother me when I purchased them that they were foreign made. It was just when I recently became aware of how the workers were treated that I became interested. I have no political agenda and I'm not in a union. Oh and I'll keep my out for those guitars for you there is a great shop right by my house I'll check it out for you. All the best!


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Post subject: Re: SHOCKING NEWS ABOUT FENDER GUITARS
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:53 pm
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This is the correct website: http://www.cortaction.wordpress.com/ and the news on it is somewhat dated.I have breached this topics on other manufacturers forums and have tried to be as unbiased as possible.If what is portrayed in these videos and given in sworn statements is true then there are some serious infractions of people's human rights going on and if there's just a remote chance that they are true,charges this serious should be investigated.I'm not making any accusations in fact I applaud Fender for being the only company with concern enough to meet with the disgruntled workers,it's too bad that other companies apparently didn't follow suit.

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Post subject: Re: SHOCKING NEWS ABOUT FENDER GUITARS
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:08 pm
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Screamin' Armadillo wrote:
Only after my post did I see GuitSlinger's post; although his link didn't work, I will further investigate the claims.

From what GuitSlinger said, however, it seems that Fender at least tried to make things right, as much as possible...

You see, I don't believe (or disbelieve) the first thing I read, see or hear. That way, if I do end up with some egg on my face, I'll be able to admit I was wrong and wash it off before it gets dry and flaky.

BTW, Have you gone to the Forums of other companies who contract Cort to do some manufacturing for them, or are you just attacking the biggest guy on the block?

I had no problem with gutslingers link. I'm going to further investigate it to see if it could be fraudulent but it looks pretty official to me. As for the biggest guy on the block isn't that what you're supposed to do. I never was much of a bully to pick on smaller guys but since you mentioned it I will go to other forums to voice my opinion. Thanks again.all the best


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Post subject: Re: SHOCKING NEWS ABOUT FENDER GUITARS
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:09 pm
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Interesting.

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Last edited by BMW-KTM on Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: SHOCKING NEWS ABOUT FENDER GUITARS
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:36 pm
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Screamin' Armadillo wrote:
Alvin67-
It sounds like you are seeking agreement and approval regarding your opinion and this particular article...however, the article was extremely biased, and no counterpoint was offered (always a red flag that indicates more of a biased op-ed piece than actual journalism). 


You must have missed my posts. I offered substantial counter-points!

Counter points:

I like my Highway One strat.

I'm all for international labor and manufacturing.

I'm all for properly made and correctly advertised Fender products.

Points:

I oppose the exploitation of workers for the sake of profit. I could not in good conscience play a master piece gutiar knowing it was built by slave labor -- the agony or joy of the build comes through when I touch a guitar.

I was one of the benefactors of Fender musical equipment that appeared to be sabotaged by Asian workers in their now obvious plea for help in getting living wages and tolerable working conditions. I lost 2-years of productivity on Squier quitars that appeared to be sabotaged.


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Post subject: Re: SHOCKING NEWS ABOUT FENDER GUITARS
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:09 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
CRGuitarMan wrote:
.... we really don't like being lectured by "Fender owners" who seem to have a real problem with Fender in general....

That's not exactly true. There are a significant number of regular and respected members who have expressed many and continuing complaints about Fender. Perhaps not typically with regard to international humanitarian concerns, I'll admit that much but negative comments nonetheless. We do in fact tolerate those who have issues with Fender on a regular basis. A trip to the amp forums will confirm this beyond any doubt whatsoever.
And just what is it that we are talking about on this thread?? Equating the complaints of "regular and respected" members of this Forum who have complaints about their Fender gear to Alvin's first post trying to rally members of this Forum against the evils perpetrated by Fender so that Alvin can feel good about owning his Fender guitars is ludicrous.

I can recall quite a few first posts by newbies railing in their very first posts about how disappointed they were with their first Fender guitar or amp. I can also recall a number of these first-time posters being railed by "regular and respected" members of this Forum as being nothing but trolls out to get any response they can. We have seen no proof by Alvin that he even actually owns any Fender guitars, just his demand that Fender own up to their evil abuses.

If there is one thing I personally am tired of on this Forum it's having people show up here with their very first post to denounce their recent Fender purchase for whatever reason. The answer to almost all of their whining is breathtakingly simple. If you bought it and don't like it for any reason:

TAKE IT BACK!

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Post subject: Re: SHOCKING NEWS ABOUT FENDER GUITARS
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:44 pm
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CRGuitarMan wrote:
BMW-KTM wrote:
CRGuitarMan wrote:
.... we really don't like being lectured by "Fender owners" who seem to have a real problem with Fender in general....

That's not exactly true. There are a significant number of regular and respected members who have expressed many and continuing complaints about Fender. Perhaps not typically with regard to international humanitarian concerns, I'll admit that much but negative comments nonetheless. We do in fact tolerate those who have issues with Fender on a regular basis. A trip to the amp forums will confirm this beyond any doubt whatsoever.
And just what is it that we are talking about on this thread?? Equating the complaints of "regular and respected" members of this Forum who have complaints about their Fender gear to Alvin's first post trying to rally members of this Forum against the evils perpetrated by Fender so that Alvin can feel good about owning his Fender guitars is ludicrous.

I can recall quite a few first posts by newbies railing in their very first posts about how disappointed they were with their first Fender guitar or amp. I can also recall a number of these first-time posters being railed by "regular and respected" members of this Forum as being nothing but trolls out to get any response they can. We have seen no proof by Alvin that he even actually owns any Fender guitars, just his demand that Fender own up to their evil abuses.

If there is one thing I personally am tired of on this Forum it's having people show up here with their very first post to denounce their recent Fender purchase for whatever reason. The answer to almost all of their whining is breathtakingly simple. If you bought it and don't like it for any reason:
If you want I can send you pics of my fender strat, bass and amp. I would have returned them right away had I known about Fenders treatment of the workers in Korea but its too late now. As someone who spent his hard earned dollars on a Fender product I have every right to voice my opinion. You don't have to like but you have to respect my right. You could just ignore these posts if they bother you so much but it seems you feel a need to defend Fender. Maybe you can explain why? I'd love to know. I'm not trying to rally anyone by the way but it seems that is what you fear. Its like you want this story just get buried and go away. I'm sorry if I offended you in anyway, that was not my intention. All the best and let me know if you want those pics of my fender products. Have a wonderful night!
TAKE IT BACK!


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Post subject: Re: SHOCKING NEWS ABOUT FENDER GUITARS
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:47 pm
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color][/b]....[/quote]
That's not exactly true. There are a significant number of regular and respected members who have expressed many and continuing complaints about Fender. Perhaps not typically with regard to international humanitarian concerns, I'll admit that much but negative comments nonetheless. We do in fact tolerate those who have issues with Fender on a regular basis. A trip to the amp forums will confirm this beyond any doubt whatsoever. [/quote]And just what is it that we are talking about on this thread?? Equating the complaints of "regular and respected" members of this Forum who have complaints about their Fender gear to Alvin's first post trying to rally members of this Forum against the evils perpetrated by Fender so that Alvin can feel good about owning his Fender guitars is ludicrous.

I can recall quite a few first posts by newbies railing in their very first posts about how disappointed they were with their first Fender guitar or amp. I can also recall a number of these first-time posters being railed by "regular and respected" members of this Forum as being nothing but trolls out to get any response they can. We have seen no proof by Alvin that he even actually owns any Fender guitars, just his demand that Fender own up to their evil abuses.

If there is one thing I personally am tired of on this Forum it's having people show up here with their very first post to denounce their recent Fender purchase for whatever reason. The answer to almost all of their whining is breathtakingly simple. If you bought it and don't like it for any reason:
If you want I can send you pics of my fender strat, bass and amp. I would have returned them right away had I known about Fenders treatment of the workers in Korea but its too late now. As someone who spent his hard earned dollars on a Fender product I have every right to voice my opinion. You don't have to like but you have to respect my right. You could just ignore these posts if they bother you so much but it seems you feel a need to defend Fender. Maybe you can explain why? I'd love to know. I'm not trying to rally anyone by the way but it seems that is what you fear. Its like you want this story just get buried and go away. I'm sorry if I offended you in anyway, that was not my intention. All the best and let me know if you want those pics of my fender products. Have a wonderful night!
TAKE IT BACK![/quote][/quote]


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Post subject: Re: SHOCKING NEWS ABOUT FENDER GUITARS
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:54 pm
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As I previously cautioned, I have reported this thread.

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Post subject: Re: SHOCKING NEWS ABOUT FENDER GUITARS
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:09 am
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Good!!


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Post subject: Re: SHOCKING NEWS ABOUT FENDER GUITARS
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:50 am
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Which Fender models are still made at the Cort factory?

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: SHOCKING NEWS ABOUT FENDER GUITARS
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:25 am
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I am sorry those people have been exploited. Where-ever there is a willing workforce there seems to be those willing to take advantage of them.

But the irony, and the truth, is that these folks are also being exploited by their quasi labor leaders....... Wearing red pro-communist head bands etc. and pushing for some sort of communist solution to capitalism. I think their neighbors to the North might have a few words of advice. You might be exploited by a business, but you can change jobs or start you own business. You will be exploited by state communism and you will have no choice.

The Axis web site is blatantly pro-communist.

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Post subject: Re: SHOCKING NEWS ABOUT FENDER GUITARS
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:57 am
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oneal lane wrote:
I am sorry those people have been exploited. Where-ever there is a willing workforce there seems to be those willing to take advantage of them.

But the irony, and the truth, is that these folks are also being exploited by their quasi labor leaders....... Wearing red pro-communist head bands etc. and pushing for some sort of communist solution to capitalism. I think their neighbors to the North might have a few words of advice. You might be exploited by a business, but you can change jobs or start you own business. You will be exploited by state communism and you will have no choice.

The Axis web site is blatantly pro-communist.




WOW! What a way to twist a story about working conditions into a tirade against communism. I saw nothing on there or heard any mention of communism on that site. Please enlighten me to the communist statements that were made or is that all you can do. Twist the story with no proof. What a shame for you.


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Post subject: Re: SHOCKING NEWS ABOUT FENDER GUITARS
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:27 am
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I'm beinning to wonder if Alvin isn't a re-named Prolife (the flaming Doofus who was confused about the difference between love and infatuation on Buxom's "Love" thread).

Similar syntax, inconsistent arguments, unable to see another point of view, full of unfounded righteous indignation...

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