If they are exactly the same with the exception of the name plate they are Fordzdas
I am reminded of the Mitzubishi 3000 sports car and it's Dodge counterpart,the Mercury Villager and it's Japanese counterpart, the first Lexus ES which was a Camry with some cosmetic changes, and the Chevy compact that GM turned into a Cadillac. There was enough of a difference between them that the companies saw fit to consider them independent marques. I can only revert to my previous comments on the matter.

_________________
"Another day in paradise!"

A Squier Stratocaster and a Custom Shop Stratocaster may appear identical from a distance. However, intrinsically, they are not, and perhaps not even from an American Standard. It could be argued that the American Standard is the 'gold standard' of the production line guitars and that a CS Masterbuilt 'American Standard' would be expected to exceed the production line manufacturing specs, materials, parts,and tolerances for that instrument. Those who would argue as such would might also take the position that the aforementioned defines the product and anything less is not really Fender even though the logo appear on the product.

_________________
"Another day in paradise!"

I'd say that also, in order to maintain our own ambitions as musicians, we'd also look at outside the US built guitars as "not being real fenders." I remember the day when if you had a fender strat people looked and gasped "a real strat!" they don't do that anymore and in my eyes that's down to people's expectations being pointed in the direction of cheaper instruments made outside the states where the real instruments home is.

As i say i had a Japanese strat and it was good but deep in my heart of hearts i knew myself it wasn't a real fender. It had the shape and logos and everything but it wasn't made in the US and that's enough for me.

_________________
Luck won't do it and ignorance can't

George Van Eps.

The CS guitars are the only guitars in the catalogue built the way the original Fender guitars were built. A team of people working on a handful of instruments at a time. No mass production, every one slightly different.
Even the price tag is about the same once you factor in inflation and cost per average weekly wage.

Draw your own conclusions about where that leaves the rest of the catalogue. It just makes me glad that despite seeing a glaring fact, I don't indulge in the petty way of thinking that lessens one instrument in favour of another.
Cos lets face a fact here. My CS, American Deluxe, Mexicans, VHR and Les Paul are all safely in there cases. Tucked up, safe and sound. I don't hear them making any noise without the main factor at work on em.

It's a tool at the end of the day. It's what YOU do with it that counts.

_________________
No no and no

That's another issue which I understand well, and have also argued myself. Gone is the time when guitars and other consumer goods, like automobiles were build to a single price point. However, there is a fine difference in this argument. You don't get the same Mercedes Benz at $40K that you do at $90K. They don't even look the same. The automaker is betting on your economic circumstances improving such that, if you desire the marque, you'll go up the line to the larger vehicles if your needs require that. With the guitars, the makers are targeting a broader market at a range of price points. What PRS has done is, IMHO, a bit wiser, because it protects its American market and the consumers who have invested in those guitars. They've built a quality product in the SE but they are not giving you the same look as the guitars made in the states. It's almost the look of their Single-cuts, but not precisely. The same for their new amps. In essence their saying, if you want the look and feel of a PRS Custom, you need to come up to the bar. Now Fender didn't do that. They've taken the approach that everyone can have a Stratocaster if they want one. They know that there are intrinsic differences in the guitars, and they are counting on reselling to the consumer who starts with a Squier Strat and have them go up the line. They aren't much concerned about appearances here. They're goal is to sell product, and retain a satisfied customer. With Fenders, it become a personal choice as to what the consumer wants to take from the purchase. IMHO, is does dilute the marque. In the end, I have to be satisfied that my Gilmour, and everything that accrues to me as a result, is better than that MIM look alike they decided to produce. Latter is a shadow of the former both in looks and in feel. The difference finer with the Claptons. There is more finesse in the Custom Shop build than the factory built guitar, but the latter no piece of junk. I know. I used to own one. There's an audience out there which is pleased that they can own a guitar which looks like David's or Eric's and look to the day when they can afford the real deal. For some, it doesn't matter.

_________________
"Another day in paradise!"

I don't see the point of labeling this a real instrument and that not...
They are all instruments aimed at different consumers of different means..
To me that is the same as the idiots who drove by me screaming " Why don't you buy an American Car " as I was filling up My A4....

That is just living with the blinders on....

_________________
"C'est parti mon Kiki "

Thank you to all who posted and voted.

I was going to wait until poll ended to state why I asked this question but its obvious by the pole how the majority feels.

Plus I couldn't remain silent with all the kind words..."yard stick", "troll", and "this thread is stupid."

No, I'm not sitting back eating popcorn watching all of you go at it. That was funny though.

I was serious when I asked the question/poll.

What started this was I recently bought the new 2011 model Fender Japan 70s Precision Bass. It's an amazing sounding and looking bass. However, I prefer the 1.5" nut width like on a Jazz Bass.

So, I bought a "licensed by Fender" Warmoth Jazz Bass replacement neck with black binding and block inlays to keep the look of the original neck and put it on the P Bass.

That's when the P Bass lost a bit of its appeal to me. I didn't know if it were because the headstock didn't say Fender or if it were because it wasn't the original neck.

I thought "this isn't really a Fender anymore" which lead to "was it really a Fender" in the first place since it wasn't US made.

I like that Fender makes different costing instruments which puts more guitars/basses in the hands of more people.

But for me, I get the best feeling of pride and joy, and of owning a piece of history when I'm playing an American made Fender that I just don't get with any other made Fender.

I wouldn't consider myself a snob and only buy American because I own two Fender Japan instruments. Maybe a name recognitionist or traditionalist.

But in my opinion, to get ever thing that goes along with owning a Fender (history/legacy etc) it's not a real Fender unless its American Made.

Think of this for example....is a Chinese made Warwick Rockbass a Warwick Bass? Technically, sure. It has Warwick's name on it, made to Warwick's specs and even looks like the German made model.

But there isn't any way in Hell I would feel the same way playing a Rockbass as I would a German made model. And, I would argue that they would not sound or play the same.

In my opinion any Guitar/Bass manufacturer that makes instruments in their home country and has lower costing ones made in another country it's not the real deal unless its the one made in the home country.

The only problem was that you, in your mind had built some kind of idea about a instrument. How it would be, how it should sound.
When you changed it (quite rightly) to what better suited you. It messed with the notion you'd concocted.

Does any of it matter. You got what you're comfortable with, go love it and play it. Anyone who says it's no good, break their nose.

BTW that aint a Fender neck your playing. "Does that matter?", is the more important question.

_________________
No no and no

Okay, then. The OP doesn't think a non-US Fender is a real Fender. So be it. I, on the other hand, feel just fine playing any of my 26 FENDER guitars, whether they were built here in the US, in Mexico, in Korea, in Japan or in China. If it says Fender, then as far as I'm concerned, it's a Fender.

I own American Standard Teles and Strats, but guess what? I don't play them that much. As a guitar player who's been playing and singing and performing for 47 years now, I honestly can't tell much difference between my US Fenders and my poor "foreign" Fenders. But what I do know is that my US Fenders are worth too much to take into a skanky bar and sit on a stand by the back door.

So I own them, play them now and then and enjoy their beauty, but most of the time they are sitting in their cases where they are safe and secure. Too bad, I guess. I know most people say it's a waste to keep a guitar in a case, but hey, it's a little different when you own about 65. (Yesterday I practiced here in the Music Room for about six solid hours - I played eight different guitars in that time).



Of course, part of my feelings may stem from the fact that I own a lot of guitars and only about a third of them are Fenders. I enjoy the heck out of all my other guitars, too. I love guitars, I have some favorites, but I love a nice variety, too. So you 20% who feel that a Fender ain't a Fender if it's not made in the US, it's your loss. In the end, it's just a guitar.

_________________
Dennis in CR
Rockin' since 1963

If it says "Fender" on the headstock (and FMIC made it) then it's a Fender. Are the US made Fender instruments superior to the MIM, MIK, MIC, and CII instruments? Yes I think that they are but that doesn't make the non US intruments any less a "Fender".

_________________
"Life is like eating jalapenos. What you do today may burn your arse tomorrow"

disagree!!

CRGuitar man...my American made Strats go to skanky bars and sit by the back door.....while we are outside the back door taking a break and would KILL anyone who walked out with it who shouldn't.....here in TN. we would just drag the offender into a holler and let the buzzards get a meal.

I can see both camps are polarized and will never agree! I disagree that a non US made fender is as much a fender as the legit USA made one's. I can see why people want to believe that, they want to think they have the real thing when they don't. Same with Epiphone's they have a small Gibson written on them but are they Gibson guitars? are they heck! Most Epiphone's are made in Korea or something. Epiphone used to be a majestic brand in it's own right away back in the day with guys like George Van Eps, they were every bit as good as Gibson's if not better. That's not to say they are not decent guitars but just don't confuse them with the real thing!

Here's another example of how this line of thinking can denigrate a brand and give some bad publicity: I have an incredible 50W Marshall JCM 800 a great amp, anyway a few years back i saw this 30W MGDFX thing advertised, 2 channels multi effects, footswitchable channels. I thought that it would be ok for cranking up at home and practicing. What a disaster this amp is! it was made in Malaysia or something but has a Marshall across the grille cloth. The thing didn't work from day one, the volume fluctuated on and off until it eventually died, bad soldering connection most probably. Point is it's an embarrassment to have that kind of bad workmanship associated with Marshall. Ok you're not expecting it to perform like a JCM tube amp but you at least expect it to work! Anyway is that a real Marshall? it says so on the grille but there's no way it is, real Marshall amps are made in England at the Marshall factory by craftsmen, end of story really. Amps like that DFX are copies, much like Fender guitars made outside the USA, those are copies they are not the real thing. That is not an isolated story with that MG either, i've heard of stacks of folks complaining of incredibly bad construction and performance. These are all the kinds of things that can happen when you start outsourcing your production instead of keeping it in house and ensuring quality remains at the best level.

Point in all of this is when a company outsource part of their production to third world countries, in order to try to manufacture a cheap product, then it's no good, it usually ends in tears. Who is to say what level of training the employees at the factory have received? I'd bet it's nowhere near the level of training the employees in the Fender facility in the US get.

_________________
Luck won't do it and ignorance can't

George Van Eps.

It's hard to believe that this thread is still going strong!! Some post are really passionate too!!

It would seem that some can't tell the difference between an opinion and an observation. I am one of those "U.S. factory workers" that makes over $60,000 a year, yes I feel like I live there at times.

My point is, we roll steel into tubing, it is impossible to buy rolls manufactured in the United States. Is it a problem, oh yeah. (That was an observation). Quality of said replacement parts is bad, performance is marginal and on-time delivery, HA! We were waiting and someone made a call, they were told if they were in that big of a hurry, come and get them.

Now, this is an opinion. Outsourcing is destroying this country. Wouldn't you like your brake pads and rotors to last a little longer? If you know of any really good auto parts, please share with the group.

I don't begrudge anybody making a living, but not at the expense of American jobs.