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Post subject: The Real Story About The Gibson/Rosewood Fiasco
Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:07 am
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Hi guys:

I know that this has been hashed and rehashed on this forum (and even one thread I spotted on the Statocaster forum), but I did some homework on it, getting info from several sources, then "reading between the lines" to tie everything together in a conclusion. Skip this thread if you aren't interested in hearing this again, but if you are, then keep reading.

Recently, Gibson's electric guitar plants in Nashville and Memphis, Tennessee, were raided by agents of the U.S. Department of Justice. The DOJ men order work to stop and sent all the plant employees home for the rest of the day, while they inspected the supplies of East Indian Rosewood on hand there. That is the wood that most of the guitars' fingerboards are made of, as most of you know already.

It's important to note, first of all, that East Indian Rosewood is in no way banned, or illegal to import, as some forum posters seemed to think. Martin uses it and so does Fender, as well as many other manufacturers of guitars. It is, in short, a commonly-used wood in the industry and if it were banned, or illegal, nobody would be using it at all.

No, the Feds cited, as the reason for the raid, a rather obscure law in India which states that unfinished East Indian Rosewood should not be exported unless it is finished by Indian workers. It's pretty obvious that the law in question is not even enforced by India, which has exported tons of the wood to manufacturers around the world for years on end. So, here you have the American DOJ raiding an American manufacturer for a violation of a foreign law which is not even enforced by the nation that made that law. And no other American guitar makers have undergone similar raids on their facilities. Not Martin, nor Fender, nor any other. So, this begs a question: Why??? Why pick on Gibson?

Digging a little deeper into this story, one will soon find out some intriguing facts. (1.) Gibson is located in Tennessee, which is a right-to-work state, meaning that labor unions there can't impose a 'closed shop' employment scheme, which requires all workers to be dues-paying union members. (2.) C.F. Martin & Co. is located in Pennsylvania, which is a pro-union, closed-shop-allowing state. Similarly, Fender, Taylor, and a few other guitar makers are located in California, which is also pro-union. Beginning to see a picture here?

(3.) Gibson's CEO belongs to the Republican Party and had made several donations to Republican candidates in the 2008 elections. And (4.) C.F. Martin's CEO, Chris Martin, is a Democrat who supported President Obama in '08 and contributed money to his campaign. I don't know the affiliations of the CEOs of Fender and other manufacturers, but they haven't been bothered at all by the DOJ. So, you can read between the lines there all you want to.

The inevitable conclusion I came to was that this whole thing was very likely brought about by the labor unions, as an attempt to "punish" a non-union company in a right-to-work state. It also very clearly had political motivations, as evidenced by the party affiliations of the two CEOs.

I am making no judgments of any kind about this. The facts are above. Reach your own conclusion.

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Post subject: Re: The Real Story About The Gibson/Rosewood Fiasco
Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:39 pm
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well done, thanks for posting.

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Post subject: Re: The Real Story About The Gibson/Rosewood Fiasco
Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:53 pm
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I've heard the same thing and agree. This is intimidation like the NLRB did to Boeing.


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Post subject: Re: The Real Story About The Gibson/Rosewood Fiasco
Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:50 pm
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Isn't amazing how obscure laws or very odd readings of laws and regulations benefiting unions started to happen three years ago. We've all know for years that certain congresmen/women could be bought, but now it is OBVIOUS that our Presidency can now be too! Tell me again how unions help the little guy!

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Post subject: Re: The Real Story About The Gibson/Rosewood Fiasco
Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:44 pm
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you are probably correct and I contacted Gibson and sent my local congressmans reply to my email concerning this which they said they will add to several they have already.
((if you want to read that look for the thread entitled Gibson Raid(which is now locked)it will be the last posting)) You will see he did some research before he emailed me back.

The administation appoints the head of the DOJ which is who is doing this to Gibson, nuff said, if this get political it will get locked.

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Post subject: Re: The Real Story About The Gibson/Rosewood Fiasco
Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:21 pm
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Pardon me if you will everybody, But wasn't the Lacey Act (agreement) is a legislation that was passed in the USA?- which is why the Feds are on it, Im not too sure if that is what they are getting done for, or whether its this indian law- but I would say the odds that Lacey Act is what they are violating and being prosecuted for are pretty good.

http://www.illegal-logging.info/approach.php?a_id=202

There would have to be an insider who blew the whistle here, someone must have alerted the authorities. I am not convinced at all that Gibson is 100% innocent, it's just we are only hearing the one-sided Gibson story here.. There is obviously a case mounting with the Feds and I wouldnt mind hearing the other side of the story before I draw any solid conclusions. The last press statement from the CEO was not a proffesional one and I did not see any lawyers present at all.. which is why I have my doubts about this

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Post subject: Re: The Real Story About The Gibson/Rosewood Fiasco
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:59 am
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To the OP: study up on the Lacey Act of 1900 - (16 U.S.C. §§ 3371–3378). Your assumptions are flawed in places. The U.S. DoJ brings charges in Federal Courts since the U.S. Attorneys' Office is the prosecutor - the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is the lead criminal investigator in this case.

To Blertles: The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service did an identical raid over two years ago. Wood was seized and neither criminal nor civil charges were ever brought against Gibson. The confiscated wood is still retained by the Federal gov't. and the AUSA [Assistant US Attorney] will not sign off on its release to Gibson. Gibson is engaged in legal action to recover their lawful property at this time.

The Lacey Act of 1900 was intended to stop the trade in illegally harvested wildlife, plant material, and their resulting derivatives. Gibson's purchase of the Indian and Madagascarian sourced rosewoods are from internationally recognized sustainable forests that are professionally managed as a renewable resource. Neither Madagascar nor India governments have lodged protests of the woods being illegally harvested. The current US DoJ has inserted a legal interpretation that the wood would be legal if processed by indigenous foreign labor and not American labor. This legal interpretation by the current DoJ is the crux of the investigation and criminal/civil complaint.

Making a domestic manufacturer responsible in the U.S. for foreign regulations, laws, and their extended intricacies in production and then to have the domestic manufacturer prove that their imported supplies are not illegal is an overreaching of the interpretation of law. One cannot easily or rationally prove a negative - it effectively makes the accused prove their innocence.

One may surmise or offer an opinion that they [Gibson] is the target of partisan political retribution by the current administration and its DoJ, but no one can prove it as of now. If one could, the hierarchy at DoJ and senior Executive staffers would be indicted. President Nixon lost his job when he was found to have used the FBI [Dept of Justice], the CIA, and the IRS [Dept of the Treasury] against those whom he considered political enemies and opponents [Watergate].


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Post subject: Re: The Real Story About The Gibson/Rosewood Fiasco
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:08 am
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I was a Union guy at one time, both the Teamsters and Machinist Unions. I can see this being political. Republicans vs. Democrats because the Republicans never really backed the unions they backed big business and their profits, but I can't see the unions "punishing" workers for being in an open shop. See's like they would be shooting themselves in the foot. Usually the Unions will "raid" a non-Union shop to try to get them to join. Just to add another twist, what if the politicians were using the Unions as scapegoats to shift the blame of the economy to the Unions instead of the poor government leadership of the Republicans, Democrats and Teabaggers?

I have no idea if Gibson is a Union or Non Union shop and why the Unions would wait so long to "punish them". All I know is when I was in the Union our jobs moved down south because Union's were scarce there and the labor, property and business taxes were less there. All I know is Gibson is an American company that hires American workers. They are one of the few companies that do. Martin now produces some of its lower end instruments in Mexico.

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Post subject: Re: The Real Story About The Gibson/Rosewood Fiasco
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:49 am
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Stratfreak51 wrote:
Hi guys:
I know that this has been hashed and rehashed on this forum (and even one thread I spotted on the Statocaster forum), but I did some homework on it, getting info from several sources, then "reading between the lines" to tie everything together in a conclusion. Skip this thread if you aren't interested in hearing this again, but if you are, then keep reading.


Regardless of the amount of homework you did, you have several facts wrong. Starting with the fact that Gibson was not raided by agents of the DOJ, but rather Fish and Wildlife which is a completely different department of Government (Interior rather than Justice). You have reported Henry J's version of which law was violated. But, if you read the search warrant, Henry is wrong. The violation in question deals with the classification of the wood. The classification is determined by its thickness. The wood was apparently mislabeled one way to export from India and mislabeled a second time -- but differently -- for import into the US. The mislabeling was done by Gibson's importer, rather than Gibson. In addition, the government believes that the importer improperly documented the the true recipient of the imported wood.

The Lacey Act -- far from protecting foreign jobs -- actually has the effect of protecting American jobs. For a view of the government raids that is less influenced by Gibson PR, see this news article:

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/20 ... sh-back-g/


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Post subject: Re: The Real Story About The Gibson/Rosewood Fiasco
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:06 am
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OP...Your thread title is misleading, as a woodworker I'm very interested as well as affected by Lacey Act restrictions.
However you chose to surmise and label as fact your assumptions which are in no way factual.
I fail to see the purpose of further clouding the waters on this issue, when what we need is clarity.

I'm assuming that you neither are employed by the DOJ or the Fish and Wildlife or are on the inside @ Gibson.
Which then leaves you on the outside like the rest of us.

It would have been better if you asked other forum readers if they connected the dots to the same conclusion rather than stating that you had revealed the underlying cause to the raid....
The conspiracy theory is a state of paranoia. I just don't see your conclusions based on what to me is coincidental.....

Sorry but Fox News and CNN do enough of hatchet jobs....I for one would prefer reading and participating in a factual debate, not a Salem Witchhunt...

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Last edited by 53magnatone on Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: The Real Story About The Gibson/Rosewood Fiasco
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:15 am
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apostolic wrote:
Stratfreak51
you are probably correct and I contacted Gibson and sent my local congressmans reply to my email concerning this which they said they will add to several they have already.
((if you want to read that look for the thread entitled Gibson Raid(which is now locked)it will be the last posting)) You will see he did some research before he emailed me back.

The administation appoints the head of the DOJ which is who is doing this to Gibson, nuff said, if this get political it will get locked.


Why would this need to become politically polarized....It is a discussion and a relevant debate.
To bring it into a congress style political firefight is missing the point and serves absolutely no intelligent purpose.
I refuse to join the preschool sandbox...I for one would really like to know what Gibson did or did not do and why was the raid on Gibson and not on other musical instrument companies.
Simple question which will probably yield more info then can be read in one sitting....Done..

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Post subject: Re: The Real Story About The Gibson/Rosewood Fiasco
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:15 pm
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Thanks for all the input, guys. I never claimed to be perfect, so if I missed something -- especially the Lacey Act -- then I stand corrected. I will have to read up on that act. None of the material I drew my conclusion from even mentioned the Lacey Act. I admit it was an assumption on my part as to the identity of the raiding agents -- I just assumed they were DOJ agents. And assumptions can often turn out to be embarrassing, right?? In any case, everything I read about it seemed to implicate the DOJ as the source of the investigation and the raid, no matter who supplied the raiding agents, and I have found nothing to counter that at all.

And no, I don't work for Gibson and I never have, nor have I ever worked for the DOJ, etc. I'm just a guitar player, like all of you, and I do have opinions. I wrote the OP mainly in an effort to correct some misconceptions that some posters in other threads appeared to have. To that end, I think I have been successful.

As I stated in the OP, I am not passing judgment on any person, agency, or company at all. This was only an attempt to report what facts I had been able to gather about this. The conclusions presented are my own. If yours differ, that's fine. We can all learn from each other.

It would be a pretty danged boring world if we were all the same, wouldn't it??

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Post subject: Re: The Real Story About The Gibson/Rosewood Fiasco
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:21 pm
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Gibson is run by Nazis!

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Post subject: Re: The Real Story About The Gibson/Rosewood Fiasco
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:45 pm
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Gibson is run by Nazis!

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Post subject: Re: The Real Story About The Gibson/Rosewood Fiasco
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:51 pm
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Politics aside.

All this news making has done sales of Gibson guitars a world of good. As people rushed out to buy slightly older guitars, that may have featured a banned and supposedly better wood on the finger board :roll: .

Follow the money, that's what I always say. Wouldn't surprise me if this was all staged. They didn't seem to be too flustered about Henry J's antics when introducing a certain guitar. And the backlash over the Hendrix Strat didn't worry em too much either.

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