This is serious

NonniG · **Posted:** Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:52 am

teledeluxe72 wrote:

about the Obama's health care thing-he really has not had much time to get it started-it will take a while, several administrations, to get it up to full working order, reaching out to everyone. And also, as far as I know, he does not have most of congress on his side? please correct me if I'm wrong. I think this is making it hard for him. He has also had to try and do this at the same time as combating a recession. The system, (when not in recession) works well in Britain, and is fair too.

Same here. In my opinion seeking medical help should be a civil right not a privilege of those who have more money.

almungo · **Joined:** Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:36 am **Posts:** 456

NonniG wrote:

teledeluxe72 wrote:

about the Obama's health care thing-he really has not had much time to get it started-it will take a while, several administrations, to get it up to full working order, reaching out to everyone. And also, as far as I know, he does not have most of congress on his side? please correct me if I'm wrong. I think this is making it hard for him. He has also had to try and do this at the same time as combating a recession. The system, (when not in recession) works well in Britain, and is fair too.

Same here. In my opinion seeking medical help should be a civil right not a privilege of those who have more money.

yeah, it makes sense...a national health service would make the US a fairer place, and it would stop people suffering because they can't afford treatment. It is hard to install because people are expecting instant results, which won't happen. Therefore people are unhappy, they can only see the cost of setting it up but no benefits yet.

Jah Soldier · **Posted:** Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:48 am

Oh wow.. This is crazy. Seriously? We're talking about freaking guitars. Nobody's looking to confiscate your guitar because of the kind of wood is on it. The very idea of it is laughable and silly. If the Feds have a hard on for stopping production on Gibson for using whatever they're using, then that's one thing. But I promise you no consumer will have to deal with any kind of repossession.

You know what? The feds COULD do a lot of things that they don't do... And this is definitely one thing they won't do. I'd like to see them take any of my guitars at any time. Bring it on suckahs!! Send the SWAT team, ATF, FED marshal, whoever.. Never mind the crackhead, gun-toting, prostitutes and pimps that hang around in my area. Come to my house and take my Gibson away..

shimmilou · **Posted:** Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:54 am

They won't have to confiscate anything up front, they'll just pick up what's left behind after we're herded into camps, only allowed to bring what we can carry. :idea:

Mark William · **Posted:** Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:19 am

teledeluxe72 wrote:

Mark William wrote:

After reading the article. I'm a little confused but I understand what happened. All I can say is that the people in this forum as well as the rest of this country are overlooking the big picture. We can all stand around pointing fingers and making this a political battle but how stupid is that? To blame this on a political party is like blaming Mexico for having Mexicans live there.
I live in AZ. I am an indpendant. When I came here I tried to get my license switched over to AZ I was told that I was suspended in CT. I had never had a suspended license before....I called CT. They told me that AZ was crazy. They had no records of this. Long story short. 3 tickets later the AZ DMV said it was their fault and that they were sorry. I took these letters to the AZ courts and they said...OK wer'e sorry too. Now pay your fines and we'll call it even. Even though it was the fault of AZ that I got the tickets. Az is a Republican state I am independant, my girlfriend at the time was Republican, she had no problems with her license....Hmm!!! Damn Republicans are all against us that are not Republican. You see how stupid that sounds. That was a true story by the way. I paid $4000 in fines over all that. And before you go off saying I should not have driven in that time...well ok..then you pay my cost of living or I'll go on welfare. Driving is no longer a privilage...it's abasic need if you want to function.
The truth is that its just all out ineptitude on the part of the justice system as a whole. Like everything in America...it's broken and both parties are at fault for that. The republicans didn't break our financial system as many accuse them of. Greed and bad policy on the part of both parties did it. Same with the justice system, the IRS, the prison system, the education system, the welfare system, social security, and about 500 other systems that are all going to fail. It's just the shawdy way that our government as a whole set them up and run them. Obama...health care? The guy said he was going to do something. He tried and he rushed, he ran into all kinds of political opposition, he did not take the time to sit back and look at what was going on, he was bucking a corrupt system, he passed a pretty watered down, ineffective plan. His intentions may have been good (like most people's) but the nature of our political system as a whole made a debacle out of what could have been a great thing for both parties. He gets Kudos for trying but a big "you idiot" for letting a broken system become just a little more broken. Is it the Dem's fault...NOOOO is it the Repub's fault..NOOOOO. Its the broken system's fault. It just happens that now that our ship seems to be sinking wer'e forgetting who is really at fault and finger pointing on the way down. It's everyone's fault.

about the Obama's health care thing-he really has not had much time to get it started-it will take a while, several administrations, to get it up to full working order, reaching out to everyone. And also, as far as I know, he does not have most of congress on his side? please correct me if I'm wrong. I think this is making it hard for him. He has also had to try and do this at the same time as combating a recession. The system, (when not in recession) works well in Britain, and is fair too.

The bill was not thought through completely (and please lets not waste time with the particulars). I am not saying that the guy did not have good intentions. I am sure that he acted with all the good intentions in the world.But for all its good points it has tons of really bad stuff that got there through the very things wer'e chatting about. But this is not my point. My point is that no matter if the guy is a Dem. or Repub., black, white, Chinese. The system itslef is 99% to blame as to why the bill and now law is so $@! backward. I am not an Obama basher. I voted for him and will likely do so again unless the Repubs come up with a miracle candidate (not likely given who is running so far). I'm just making the point that this problem and all of these seemingly endless list of problems stem from a long history of bad bad decision making, rushed policies aimed at pleasing special interests with $$$, and the root of all evil "greed". This is about the only bipartison thing about our government.
American government is like a Boeing 747 flying accross the ocean with a broken wing. You cannot fix it in flight. For this problem that it has taken 200+ years to create, you first must land the plane and right now there is only one way to do that in our metaphor and no one including myself is up for a civil war, revolution, coupe, or whatever you want to call it. America is still the best place on the planet to be but it won't be for much longer if that plane doesn't land.

almungo · **Joined:** Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:36 am **Posts:** 456

Quote:

The system itslef is 99% to blame as to why the bill and now law is so $@! backward.

I agree-most governments have too much bureaucracy.

tvr1979 · **Joined:** Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:15 pm **Posts:** 603

I have been following this story since inception. The latest is a weird article in the Wall Street Journal dated November 25th. This is how I've come to see Gibson's situation.

The U.S. government has the Lacey Act to protect the natural resources (living and mineral) of all countries including our own. This law requires us to obey other countries laws. Gibson was found to have ebony from India that did not meet it's export laws.

In the 1970's my wife and I bought our first new home and put a redwood deck on it. Redwood prices were through the roof. Japan was buying all the redwood our loggers could cut and they shipped the raw logs to Japan. Out timber industry maintained that our forests couldn't just be cut and shipped to Japan. They wanted our timber industry to at least cut the wood into boards before export, preserving jobs. I don't know if this practice ever became law, but now imagine the Japanese government finding that a large Japanese furniture manufacture was buying redwood from a Chinese distributor that was importing now illegal U.S. redwood and finishing the product in China in violation of the Lacey Act. The Japanese furniture manufacture now contacts the manufacturing lobbies and uses their vast collective resources to try and modify, or exclude the Lacey Act in Japan (this is exactly what Gibson and others are doing here). Now the Japanese manufacture's lobby also creates a media blitz saying that the Japanese government is going to make it's redwood loving people buy particleboard furniture because the government's to large and it's abusive power is forcing furniture manufacturer's to no longer offer redwood products. All of this falsehood.

India has a law saying it's ebony must be finished to a certain standard before it's exported. The U.S. is just respecting India's laws, and so should Gibson. That's all there is to it.

ollyclam · **Posted:** Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:52 am

Mark William wrote:

teledeluxe72 wrote:

Mark William wrote:

bad decision making, rushed policies aimed at pleasing special interests with $$$

I read that as meaning policies aimed at pleasing people who play guitars with 3 single coil pickups at first glance!

Dont worry, i can see they are dollar signs now. I just take it as a sign ive been spending too much time on this forum where anything that remotely looks like SSS makes me think that now!

63supro · **Joined:** Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:19 pm **Posts:** 8827

I'm not worried one bit. Gibson allegedly has all the documentation proving they did nothing wrong. This is the second time this has happened to Gibson and nothing happened the first time. Please let's not turn this into some half baked political discussion again. No one is going to confiscate anything and you won't be fined. It's all attention getting bullshit. There are petitions out there that you can sign to help Gibson. Sign one, I did. Unless you're afraid of, liberals, conservatives, commies or Obama crawling out from under your bed and taking your Lester away from you. :wink:

The thing is, if you don't like what Gibson does, which in my mind is making great sounding guitars, don't buy one. My latest Gibson is only a couple months old. I'm still not worried.

The Lacey Act once again has been twisted and molested again to suit some sort of either financial or political gain for someone.

We'll just see how it all pans out. This is actually old news. Here's an article from Gibson's CEO
http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/N ... 1103-2011/

Actually, I'd be more worried about the Human Rights and Safety Violations going on at the Cort Factory. Fender and many others outsource some of their work there. :wink:

Way more important to me than a couple of skids of wood. When you look at how much of the worlds wood is actually used for guitar making, you wouldn't worry about it.

somebizarredude · **Posted:** Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:36 am

well in my opinion there are more important things going on in the world. I think the particular branch of the government that conducted this "Raid" needs to get their priority's strait. one of the worst things you can do during an economic recession is hassle the domestic factories over trivial nonsense. :roll:

BMW-KTM · **Posted:** Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:01 am

never mind

T2Stratman · **Posted:** Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:12 am

Don't kid yourself, the Justice Department didn't decide to do this all on its own. This was obviously politically motivated. Gibson's CEO is a Republican, Martin (who uses more of this wood than anyone) has not recieved that knock on the door...why you ask? Because Chris Martin IV is a Democrat and gives $$$ to Democrats. Fenders' CEO is also a Dem, so don't think this is just a government bureauocrat making a mistake or misinterpreting the law. Sorry but those Leftwing dumba$$es would have you believe otherwise, because the Dems have swallowed "The Annointed Ones" socialist agenda...Dems used to have some morals, now they just want to do whatever makes them rich.
As for the Healthcare law...again, don't be so naive. They crammed that law down the peoples throats behind closed doors to benefit the likes of Nancy Pelosi and her commrades! And there is just ONE problem with this law...WE CAN'T AFFORD THE $10 TRILLION Bill that comes with it...we don't have the MONEY and this WILL bankrupt a country...even one as strong economically as ours

Wake up and smell the rotten roses growingbefore your very eyes in our government.

T2

63supro · **Joined:** Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:19 pm **Posts:** 8827

Don't know about all that. Martin has been using Black Richlite for its fingerboards and bridge saddles for a while now. It's paper pulp and resin. It's on the Martin I have now and the guitar is awesome.

adey · **Posted:** Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:42 pm

It seems that Gibson haven't been especially well treated, but..

The law is a blunt instrument, always clumsily framed by compromise and vested interests, and often arbitrarily enforced. However, the underlying reason behind this particular law is sound. Left unchecked, the capitalist way of doing things will happily consume evrything of value and importance as long as there's a buck to be made.

I think it's reasonable to give the rain forests and our natural woodlands a break. I rather like the idea of being able to continue breathing and not having to wear factor 12,000 when I want to go out in the sunlight.. :oops:

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