Rioting (or should that be organised looting?) in my home town of Birmingham last night. It was pretty grim, but only more of what we saw under the Thatcher Government 30 odd years ago.

I agree you have to look at underlying social issues. Infact it's essential that we do (I work in Local Govt and know that some of those issues are very dire indeed) but it needs to be done from a position of strength. We can't afford to play catch-up as apologists to liberal minorities who insist that thieving, arsonist criminals are actually a hard done-by underclass desperate to have their unacceptable messages heard. And that they have a perfect right to opt out of Society and consider themselves to be above the laws and policing that the rest of us all submit to. We tried it their way after the '80s riots and it doesn't work.

Hit the rioters (many of whom are by means an underclass - step forward Charlie Gilmour and Otis Ferry) with everything Society can throw at them: Batton charges, rubber bullets, water cannons whatever. Then name and shame those arrested - none of this coy pixellation of offendors faces either thank you very much. Let Society see who they are and from what inadequate stock they come from. Lengthy sentences to follow of course.

Society has a right to properly defend itself first and foremost. But then we must start to deal with some of the social issues that MAY have contributed to the unrest.

If I sound like a right wing fundamentalist paid up member of the "hang 'em & flog 'em" brigade, I promise I'm not. I'm a long term Socialist who has worked with the poorer members of Society all of his life. I'm trying not to be political either, but you can't help but see that when you have Conservatives in power, you have riots in the Street. I would put real money on the fact that David Cameron will be bricking himself right now, and that the massive cuts in 'overstaffed' Police numbers - touted as 'inevitable and the only possible way forward' - will be hastily revised..

I guess because of the Economic situation, there are some things that we have to accept, but Governments need to remember that they represent people first. And that those people are not a disposable after-thought to be be sacrificed to the whim of the Financial Markets and corrupt financiers. But I guess that's a whole other discussion..

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Hi Dan: the facts surounding the shooting by police of Mark Duggan are confused, and since they are now the subject of an official enquiry the police are not allowed to comment in public until that investigation reports - which is not helping damp down wild speculation. Here's the best info I can find:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/0 ... m-shooting

It seems to be true that when the police told him to get out of the car he had a loaded gun, which in itself is completely illegal under our extremely tight gun control laws. And he was being apprehended by armed police which is also suggestive: to this day the British police force is almost entirely unarmed, except for specialist units. So it seems they had reason to expect trouble. However, it does sound like there are questions to be asked about their actions and it may turn out they fired when he had not, which would be bad, to say the least.

To put it in context, in the whole of Britain (a country of 62 million) the police have shot 14 people in the last 12 years, most of them non-fatally. So this sort of thing is extremely rare with us, and therefore high profile.

However, by now absolutely nobody is seriously claiming the rioting has anything to do with anger over that incident. That was just a pretext to get started and now it has turned into nothing but a burglary fest of never-before-seen proportions.



Hello ollyclam: it is indeed unpleasant, but don't get too upset. Unless you actually go to stand and watch (which some people have been doing, unbelievably) it is pretty easy to stay out of trouble.

I live in Peckham and after trouble in Brixton on Sunday we knew with sinking hearts it would come here next. I was near the high street around six last night and saw hundreds of youths, many of them conspicuously consulting their Blackberries; a sea of police further down. At some unseen signal it all suddenly kicked off and right before my eyes I saw shops broken in and emptied in seconds by people who just happened to have big suitcases with them to fill. By the time I got home a few hundred yards away the surrounding streets were full of groups of menacing people and I heard stories of drivers being dragged from their cars which were then set on fire down on the main road.

The idea of my wife driving home and suddenly finding herself in the middle of a scene like that made my blood run cold so I drove up to her office three miles away to collect her. Some hair-raising moments in both directions on that journey and we had to take several swift U-turns to avoid trouble breaking out right in front of us. It wasn't fun.

We arrived home to find Peckham on fire live on BBC News 24, filmed from helicopters right above our house. Contrary to the impression you might have we live amongst nice, quiet, genteel, leafy streets full of well kept old houses - this stuff is not what we're used to!

But then within an hour the police had it all under control, the fires were out and the whole thing had moved on somewhere else. Today my neighbour was out trimming his privet hedge like nothing had happened.

So don't worry too much, ollyclam: this is still London, not Rio De Janeiro. Civilisation isn't ending just yet. It's merely getting bruised a bit. Stay calm and stay indoors and you'll be fine.



Thank you kindly fellas, much appreciated.

Onward and upward.

Cheers - C

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Yes, it seems we do this about a year into each new Tory government, doesn't it? It's becoming a tradition - and we do love tradition in our country!

Cheers - C

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Exactly what I was thinking! This is a case of the Police having to just bust the Knuckle Heads and use what ever force is necessary. Let Animals run wild once and your open for it again. A frequent happening in places here in the U.S. and some talking heads try to justify it, Representative Kerosene' Maxine Waters makes a living off such flaming just to name one.

Hate to see London go the way of some U.S. cities.

The hell with Rubber Bullets use of Hollow Tips seem called for to stop rioters by hitting them with a fierce response to instill fear of further action.

The only way to win a war is to include the population that the Warriors come from. Not one War has been won since WWII when do to political correctness this policy has stopped. Now Warriors die over ten year periods to reach no good ending!

Go in full force on Rioters no matter who they are and their desire to disrupt society will cause them to think twice. Political correctness is the cause of this stuff going on.

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Thomas Jefferson

Wisconsin Hospitals were filled the other day due to a riot at the Wisconsin State Fair just like the one at the Iowa State Fair last year.
I wonder why CNN and MSNBC and the other news networks have not televised these pieces of News.

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Thomas Jefferson

You know why, Lucy......do I hafta 'splain it to you?



Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY

Ceri, Adey, and Olly thank you for your first hand accounts. I read The Guardian article and it gives me a different perspective on that incident. I can see how with a mostly unarmed populace and Police force that a shooting like this would be provocative. Over here in my neck of the woods it would get a yawn and a slew of good riddance posts in the comment section of the story. Gun violence is a common occurence in our society but its mostly between the criminals themselves or perpetrated on a victim because they won't surrender their valuables fast enough. The local Police rarely use deadly force because of the army of lawyers who descend on them after such an incident. Tasers have been the weapon of choice, but two deaths in two years in Charlotte NC from their use have created controversy over those less than lethal weapons.

Regardless of the damage caused by these rioters your government's response seems to be subdued yet appropriate. They have shown remarkable restraint in the use of force. However, someone is or some groups are coordinating these riots as evidenced by Ceri's remark about the Blackberrys. It seems to be more of a criminal enterprise than a social upheaval. When things like that happen over here the body count is much higher but the violence tends to end sooner. Stay safe and stay aware of your surroundings as that may be your best defense. Ceri you may want to look into building a crossbow disguised as a Strat Like Object. I'm sure you could pull it off.

It's almost impossible to have a "peaceful"protest these days as there are so many subversive groups of punks that target these protests and use them to spread their own brand of violence and hatred.These groups seem to derive fun and pleasure from causing destruction and mayhem and in so doing get the organizers branded as hooligans no matter how peaceful and noble their cause.For every group that wants to have a peaceful protest there seems to be 3 or 4 who say"Let's go there and stir things up."

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'65 Strat,65 Mustang,65 Jaguar,4 more Strats,3 vintage Vox guitars,5 Vox amps,'69 Bassman with a '68 2-15 Bassman cab,36 guitars total-15asst'd amps total,2 vintage '60s Hammond organs & a myriad of effects-with a few rare vintage ones.

Yeah, it's kicked off in Manchester tonight, I wondered how long it was going to take. About half an hour ago, I saw a big flash in the sky, apparently 'Selfridges' a large store is on fire and presumed being looted. There are large gangs in the main shopping centre of the city, kids mostly, just creating havoc and looting, copying everything that's been happening elsewhere.
The police have promised a large turnout of officers tonight and say, these gangs will meet a robust responce to this concerning problem.
Liverpool was hit last night and probably tonight, we'll see how it goes from here.

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Yep, tolda ya, I just saw a thing yesturday about how cops opened fire on like five innocent people after Katrina hit for no apparent reason

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Hi again Dan: in the last hour the Official Enquiry has released some info. They say that he did indeed have a loaded gun but that it hasn't been fired. The police fired two shots both of which hit him in the chest, killing him. Rumours which have been circulating that he was shot in the head in an "assassination" type attack are not true.

Reading between the lines, he got out the car brandishing a gun and someone's finger was too quick on the trigger and he was shot dead.



The thing about the Blackberrys is that their messaging system is highly encrypted and secure: someone can send multiple messages to his cohort and the source is effectively untraceable - unlike regular text messaging or emails. Therefore, the Blackberry is the criminal's handset of choice. (You probably knew all that but I didn't.) Information has leaked out that prior to each outbreak of trouble Blackberry messages have been circulating encouraging people to come to the next target place and take part in rioting and looting. And I did indeed see lots of youths all carrying Blackberrys - which itself was odd because hereabouts that brand is otherwise a very white collar professional gadget.

Blackberry profess to be deeply embarrassed by the use to which their service is being put and are reported to be "co-operating" with the police to track down ringleaders, though to what extent I don't know. Related to which, today we had the first charging of someone for inciting disorder via Facebook.

So far 550 people have been arrested in London and more in other towns. The first custody hearings took place in my local magistrates' court today and whilst many of the rioters were unemployed teenagers others included older people up to 47, graduates, and people in decent jobs, including a graphic designer and a youth worker. Nice.

Last night we had 6000 police on the streets of London and it clearly wasn't nearly enough - though much more than usual. Tonight we have 16,000 police on duty and things are now calm, more or less. Instead, the trouble has moved to Manchester.

Sorry, Rhumba!

We live in interesting times.

Cheers - C

PS: when I first heard there was looting on the streets of London I thought; "how charming"...

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I suppose they'd have to bring them back from northern Ireland first.

Cheers

David

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"Humans think they are smarter than dolphins because we build cars and buildings and start wars etc...and all that dolphins do is swim in the water, eat fish and play around. Dolphins believe that they are smarter for exactly the same reasons."

Praying for a resolution to these problems, glad everyone is OK. Folks need to ingage in positive endeavors like music and maybe these things wont happen.
Rock on my friends and God bless us all.

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BSG

They would. We have never used them on the mainland. Nor rubber bullets nor tear gas either. A very limited and highly controversial use of tazers. Not popular.



Actually, our unemployment rate is 7.7%, well below the other countries you named, and most others in the developed world at this point in the economic cycle. And contrary to local belief our education system is pretty good by international measures too. Not perfect but not bad.

Though I agree with you about people doing this sort of thing when they don't rate their own future. That's an issue.

cheers - C

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