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Post subject: Re: The End of Wood?
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:02 pm
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Seriously nice work.

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Post subject: Re: The End of Wood?
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:16 pm
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Lumber companies have been cutting from tree farms for a long time now. I think it would be no stretch of the imagination to say that guitar companies could do the same. Think of the money Fender could save in the long run if the lumber used to build guitars came from their own stock. If it gets to the point that 'tone woods' are no longer readily available for purchase, somebody will come up with an idea. Countless people play guitar, bass, drums etc...and the industry is huge. No doubt when it comes down to it, it'll never be an issue.
As Ceri said, if a company no longer has tonewood "X" available, they can begin using some less known wood (koa, sapele etc...) and their marketing department will take care of convincing their customers that the new stuff is better than the old.
I believe we will see a shift in the materials used, but guitars will always be made of wood.

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Post subject: Re: The End of Wood?
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:27 pm
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CRGuitarMan wrote:
We have a huge international logging company here in the midwest and when I tried to buy quarter-sawn white oak from them they almost laughed at me - said almost ALL of their wood, cut and kiln dried here in the midwest is headed for China. He also said China is paying top dollar (sending some of our own money back to us, I guess) and they can't afford to sell to little guys like me.

As far as current tone woods (alder, basswood, poplar, pine) these grow so fast and are so widespread I don't see how they could ever be used up. Basswood and poplar were considered junk woods in MN when I lived up there from 1975-2000. You could buy them at any sawmill (if the mill would even cut them) for less than $1 a board foot.

There are more acres of timber in this country now that there were when the Pilgrims got here and a good portion of these acres are lumber farms. I find the whole idea laughable.

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This is what I do with quarter-sawn white oak.

Nice work your a real craftsman, and +1 on avaiability of product wood. :)
----Danny,


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Post subject: Re: The End of Wood?
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:40 pm
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Trees Trees and more trees. Yep these are redwoods. The same holds true for all species of usable trees :)
----Danny,

http://youtu.be/0Opbb7O8KYY


Last edited by Danny Duke on Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: The End of Wood?
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:41 pm
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brotherdave wrote:
Maybe that is just BS to set everyone up for outrageous price hikes, or to justify the meteoric rise is the prices of guitars that come with the G word on them we've seen in the past 10 years.



+1 Brother...Gibson is simply gouging people...I mean a Fender Custom Shop Strat is less expensive that a standard reissue Les Paul? Screw That! I mean come on $5K for a Les Paul...HJ is laughing all the way to the bank that people will actually pay that!

T2

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Post subject: Re: The End of Wood?
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:09 pm
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CRGuitarMan wrote:
We have a huge international logging company here in the midwest and when I tried to buy quarter-sawn white oak from them they almost laughed at me - said almost ALL of their wood, cut and kiln dried here in the midwest is headed for China. He also said China is paying top dollar (sending some of our own money back to us, I guess) and they can't afford to sell to little guys like me.

As far as current tone woods (alder, basswood, poplar, pine) these grow so fast and are so widespread I don't see how they could ever be used up. Basswood and poplar were considered junk woods in MN when I lived up there from 1975-2000. You could buy them at any sawmill (if the mill would even cut them) for less than $1 a board foot.

There are more acres of timber in this country now that there were when the Pilgrims got here and a good portion of these acres are lumber farms. I find the whole idea laughable.

Image

This is what I do with quarter-sawn white oak.


That's gorgeous!

Rawk on!

8)

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: The End of Wood?
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:14 pm
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JamesVRoy wrote:
you should all take up the accordian, they're real chick magnets


Quoted for serious lol quotient... :lol:

I do hope that guitars as we know them don't die out. Would be a crying shame. I'm gunna buy all the gear I can now, just in case.

... hey, this excuse may actually hold water with the other half. Excuse me whilst I empty my bank account. 8)

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Post subject: Re: The End of Wood?
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:47 pm
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VladSoilerOfCarpets wrote:
JamesVRoy wrote:
you should all take up the accordian, they're real chick magnets


Quoted for serious lol quotient... :lol:

I do hope that guitars as we know them don't die out. Would be a crying shame. I'm gunna buy all the gear I can now, just in case.

... hey, this excuse may actually hold water with the other half. Excuse me whilst I empty my bank account. 8)

Very Good, more power to you Mate :!: I love it. :lol: :lol:
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Post subject: Re: The End of Wood?
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:26 pm
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TimDrakeMusic wrote:
Lumber companies have been cutting from tree farms for a long time now. I think it would be no stretch of the imagination to say that guitar companies could do the same. Think of the money Fender could save in the long run if the lumber used to build guitars came from their own stock. .


Perhaps but not maple, alder, ash, etc. Fender isn't in 'the game' which requires investment in the millions of board feet of production. Fender's use of maple wouldn't amount to an hour's annual production for a large hardwood producer. It's nearly all going into hardwood flooring, stair treads, etc. What companies do is set some pieces aside for specialty use (such as guitar necks, etc.) . Some guitar companies use buyers that visit mills and purchase these prime pieces. some smaller Canadian guitar manufacturers are also specialty wood wholesalers selling lumber to other guitar manufacturers.


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Post subject: Re: The End of Wood?
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:34 pm
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So for their "telebration," isn't Fender going to release a tele made out of Bamboo laminate? I thought I saw it when I was following them on the Namm vids.

We got a whole lotta bamboo... that could be an alternative... Those monocots grow like weeds

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Post subject: Re: The End of Wood?
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:43 pm
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T2Stratman wrote:
brotherdave wrote:
Maybe that is just BS to set everyone up for outrageous price hikes, or to justify the meteoric rise is the prices of guitars that come with the G word on them we've seen in the past 10 years.



+1 Brother...Gibson is simply gouging people...I mean a Fender Custom Shop Strat is less expensive that a standard reissue Les Paul? Screw That! I mean come on $5K for a Les Paul...HJ is laughing all the way to the bank that people will actually pay that!

T2

I've sadly realized that my 1977 Gibson Les Paul Custom is worth less than a new Les Paul....it's worth a lot more than what I paid in '77,but it's a wonder anybody even buys a new one...I wouldn't pay their prices.


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Post subject: Re: The End of Wood?
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:43 pm
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Aerodynomite wrote:
tbazzone wrote:
I don,t think so. Some woods yes but all no. Alder, Ash, Maple, Pine


We've only got a bazillion acres of forests with those trees in Canada. The amount of wood that goes into guitars doesn't even register as a percent of their harvest.

Re the guy at Gibson...get a new job. I saw a Les Paul Custom last week from China that was near perfect. The first thing that comes to anyone's thoughts when buying a Gibson is 'is it a fake?' I've sold off all but two of my Gibsons, they are going to keep losing value as fakes improve.

Why would they loose value as Fakes improve? And if you really think that then it would be true of all brands

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Post subject: Re: The End of Wood?
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:07 am
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Good discussion.. 8)

Ceri, I appreciated your scholarly comments and I loved that prime piece of cabinet making by CR Guitar Man.

I understand from other reading, that the availabilty of spruce for acoustic/classical tops is already a serious issue..

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Post subject: Re: The End of Wood?
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:01 am
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CRGuitarMan wrote:
We have a huge international logging company here in the midwest and when I tried to buy quarter-sawn white oak from them they almost laughed at me - said almost ALL of their wood, cut and kiln dried here in the midwest is headed for China. He also said China is paying top dollar (sending some of our own money back to us, I guess) and they can't afford to sell to little guys like me.

Ha - that is exactly my experience too. I was recently visiting a big "tonewood" supplier my side of the pond and he said it is getting harder and harder to source many types of hardwood because Chinese bulk buyers are scooping it all up for their domestic market. Rosewood in particular is highly prized in China for furniture, floors and other items and they are buying the entire output of big mills to send home.

As I arrived the owner of the timber company (exotichardwoods.co.uk) was working away in a mixture of rage and misery at a huge £10,000 / $16,000 consignment of Indonesian rosewood he'd just received from a previously reliable supplier. Most of the latest batch was so substandard as to be fit only for firewood and my guy said it would take him a couple of weeks to sort through it and separate out the 20% or so that was sellable, before putting the rest into his furnace. In the international timber trade there are no comebacks from a deal like that and he just has to take the hit and move on.

The cause was that he'd been sent the dregs of a mill's output, the rest having been vacuumed up by a Chinese buyer. And his experience wasn't the worst: he said a Dutch colleague had recently done a tour in person of tropical hardwood mills and loaded wood into a sea-container with his own hands. When it arrived in Holland a few weeks later the timber had been replaced with rocks, though somehow the door seals were still in tact.

When we whine about the cost of guitars we sometimes have no idea the risks people have taken to get that timber to us.

I'm away from home or I'd post photos of my supplier's warehouse. Amazing stuff (if you're interested in these things). For example, he had a big stack of 200 year old Cuban mahogany that had recently been rediscovered in an old warehouse in Bristol where it had sat for two centuries. Completely illegal to move that mahogany across borders these days, so that is a never-to-be-repeated stock. And he had huge pallets full of lignum vitae. And some gorgeous premium flamey sycamore (I bought a plank). And birdseye maple (I bought a plank and also some sawn acoustic backs and sides). And a mound of spalted beech. And several enormous planks of bog oak. And amazingly big trunks of ebony. And rosewood of many types. And... and... and...

Actually, Forum user Nutter did that tonewood road trip with me - we visited another famous instrument wood supplier that day too. Perhaps he has a photo or two he'd like to post...? [Calling: "Nutter...?"]


CRGuitarMan wrote:
Image

This is what I do with quarter-sawn white oak.

CR, that is fabulous. You are the real deal: respect. 8)

There's eager eyes here to see any other pictures you might care to post...?

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: The End of Wood?
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:59 am
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I'm no tree hugger, but trees really are needed. Recently in my area, most of the trees are gone as well as huge wooded areas and even a long standing golf course was turned into shopping centers and office buildings. What we have now is flooding in areas that never flooded before. Trees are need to turn CO2 into oxygen too. Water does not adsorb into asphalt.

An article in GC a while back said that Sitka Spruce is getting scarce. Some companies aren't replacing what they take. Think the government is in the way with regulations? If the lumber industry was deregulated, we wouldn't have a single tree in this country. Greed and a quick buck is all that will prevail. Look what happened to the banking industry with deregulation. :?

Get what you can now. If you can afford to get a nice acoustic made out of real solid tone woods not laminated garbage, get one. I know it looks like there's a lot of lumber around, but it's not good tone wood.

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