Ok, maybe Im a little uneducated on this, but I'm a little confused.. someone enlighten me on this please but before we get into it, I'm wanting intelligent conversation and debate- I dont want this topic going down the toilet here folks

I understand there has been an uprising in Libya, and there has been fighting between Kadafi sympathisers and Libyan rebels..

As far as I can see, the rebels are pretty well equipped compared to other rebel groups in the world- they have already shot down fighter-jets, and they have numerous tanks, weapons and artillery.

As the UN passed resolution 1973 and Ghadafi imposed a ceasefire on the rebels... problem solved I thought! But at what point was the desicion made to impose a no-fly zone and launch a missle, air-attack & naval assault on the country!?? What is so special about Libya compared to all the other countries in the same boat> ie- why has there been no assault on Mugabe for example? I can seen many civilians are going to be killed during this.. I dont feel good about this at all.

Whats with all these uprisings in the east all of the sudden and people over-throwing governments- is there something behind the scenes driving these? Also, I feel sad that military resources arent being commited to the Japan devastations and searching for the many thousands that are presumed missing or dead, yet they are launching assaults? I see the Japanese people could do with naval helicopters military aid and rescue efforts- it just blows me away that there is more effort focused towards Libya..

Again, political but please keep this discussion above the belt here folks..

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I think you have a great point about how selective the U.N. and the western world are so particular about choosing which despot to attack. I think the simple answer is that Libya has oil and as far as I know Zimbabwe does not. There also seems to be a racial bias to stopping genocide as the west never intervened in Rwanda when mass killings there were taking place.

I would put the Saudi regime ahead of Qaddafi in cruelty to their own people, (at least until very recently), and the U.S. props up that despotic royal family. I think there is a line between a country acting in its own healthy self-interest and the supporting of monstrous regimes around the world to get what it wants. This line seems to be crossed constantly by democracies around the world.

I don't have a problem with the no fly zone in Libya if Qaddafi was still attacking the people as reports here have said. It would be nice if the world community would be on the side of peoples' liberty more often. It seems when countries get in bed with cruel leaders or questionable causes, those short-sighted goals usually blow up into much more complex and costly problems over the long term.

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Thats what Im perplexed about- I thought the ceasefire was to resolve this and to save western countries from 'going down that road'.. Maybe it didnt last or there just wasnt much chance given..

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i dont know a lot about it either guys. what i do know is that
what happened in japan is not a military issue and our efforts as a military
shouldnt be used. we have red cross for that. Rwanda should have had more countries come to their rescue indeed.

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63supro
"The good thing is in a club situation, most of the patrons are trashed and really can't tell the difference."

Hi Blertles: these topics always turn silly and/or nasty. Soon as this one does I'm quietly leaving. But till then, I've things to offer on it.


No. The "rebels" are mostly civilian demonstrators who when confronted with force then took what arms they could get hold of as the situation turned violent. They are predominantly equipped with small arms, plus stuff they took from certain arms dumps before Gadafi's people could take or destroy them. They also have disaffected elements of the military on their side but they are mostly equipped with the lesser of Libya's hardware: for example, those are very ancient Soviet tanks they have, as compared with the more modern ones operating from Tripoli. They did have at least one fighter aircraft - which was shot down yesterday, unfortunately probably by their own side.

Unlike some other Arab states, Gadafi has in fact maintained a relatively small military, for fear of it someday being turned against him in just this sort of uprising. However, in addition to the modern parts of the Libyan army he does control (for the time being) a significant mercenary force drawn from other countries. How long those units remain loyal remains to be seen.


All the independent sources (Reuters, AP, etc) say that his forces on the edge of Benghazi were breaking the ceasefire within minutes of it starting. The presumed intention being to get tanks and soldiers into the city where they'd be difficult to target before European aircraft were overhead.


The French in particular wanted to do it a couple of weeks ago. The French and British leaderships knew that there was a tipping point then and had we caught it Gadafi would likely be gone by now. Unfortunately, as we've discovered to such high cost, doing these things without legal international agreement is a road to perdition (Iraq). So we've waited till all our ducks are in a row and then acted within hours of that agreement. You can see by the scale and complexity of the action that it must have been being planned in detail for weeks.


In this imperfect world we do things on a case by case basis. There is suddenly a momentum to the fall of Middle Eastern dictatorships and it would be nice to be on the right side in that part of the world just for once. Libya seems to be a situation where a timely and relatively achievable nudge might make all the difference. Unfortunately, that moment might have been a week or two back. There may be a longer road ahead now.

I've never heard anyone suggest there was something to be achieved in Zimbabwe with air power. And with massive sensitivities on all sides over colonialism nobody was ever going to do anything on the ground over that one.

Case by case. And a hefty dose of what the French call real politik.


I agree.


I doubt it. It seems Western governments have been caught on the hop by the whole Middle East thing and have been running to try and catch up. Nicolas Sarkozy in particular feels he floundered in public over Tunisia and Egypt and so wants to be at the front this time around. Ego issues don't mean what he's doing is wrong, though.


There's no conflict of resources here. European fighter aircraft and submarines based in the Mediterranean have no role in the ongoing Japanese disaster.


Quite.

Cheers - C

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i'll take mombo #5

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63supro
"The good thing is in a club situation, most of the patrons are trashed and really can't tell the difference."

Like has been eloquently put by others already there are a hundred differences between whats hapeened in north Africa and further south.

The so called rebels stated initially any western interferance would be seen as an attack on them! Rapidly changed their minds when it suited though.
Lets hope no western ground forces ever set foot in Libya. How does it go.........

"Right you lot get ready to get your heads blown off for f%$k all then if you survive that and the derision of part of the UK population youll then get your P45 redundacy notice have fun "

One of the problems with the arab world and much more so the muslim brotherhood (not the same thing) is that their more interested in the afterlife than the present life. Kinda hampered their "development" for the last 1000 years eh?

I agree with Ceri's assessment... But I can tell you this.. Im sad in my heart for all of the innocent victims that get caught up in things like this...

Bill

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Hey, Boy Blue is back!

I don,t think other countrys should interfear with a countrys civil war unless they try to take it outside of there own country. The billions of dollars should be helping japan with their issues at the moment.

" INTERNET " would be my observation as to the why and how this uprising of people throughout Africa and the Middle East is spreading.

The internet was a door opened onto an unreachable landscape, handheld devices are the tools which made sense of the geography. Twitter and Facebook and all the instant text apps. allowed people to see for themselves that their own governments propaganda just did not coorelate with the information they were personally receiving.
Result is questions, then doubt, then the real question of can so many people in other countries really be like this instead of what we are told ???

When you educate a repressed population as to how the rest of the world really is, then you have opened up the bottle and let the Genie out. ( not to be quaint ).
It was always a finite timeline as to how long these regimes could exploit their own people.
One of the primary reasons as to why Ghadafi ( and others ) is/are so ruthless in his/their methodology.
I do not believe he is as out of touch as he is portrayed.
He knows very well this is his last stand, he actually could be compared to Hitler in many ways. A complete idealogue, convinced that his version of reality is the only correct one, his posturing and playacting is meant to deceive, obfuscate and gain time, that of which is really no longer an advantage since the U.N. enacted the No- Fly Zone.
I believe he will attempt to take as many as he can if he is to fail.

Why has he been left to operate for so long That is the mistery question and I do not think we will have the real answers any time soon.
A pardon for the Lockerbie airliner disaster That was the ultimate joke and insult to all of the victims and their families. Not to mention all the other terrorist/covert agenda's he was sponsoring or involved in.
International relations and politics are ugly, it's a Quid Pro Quo game and many suffer the brunt of critical decisions .

As to the No Fly Zone. That is not a Stop Sign erected at the Carrefour.
An NFZ means immediate deactivation of anti-aircraft, Radar Installations, as well as any potentially threatening armament that could ( and would ) be used against the policing force.
So that means air strikes against targets. There is no pussyfooting around once this is enacted. It is not officially War, but it is a military engagement.

Libya is more of a Petroleum Conduit rather than an actual big time supplier, that explains the
" We'll look the other way while........."
If you look at the map location of Libya it is between Egypt and Tunisia and very close to Italy and France which is across the Mediterranean Sea. So that is critical.

As far as calling those people Rebels, i do not think that is an appropriate term, as it infers a group of Outlaws, Criminals.
I see these people as a population that has been repressed and oppressed for so long that their backs were against the wall and enough was enough.
Remember that they protested peacefully and were demanding more rights and hands on decision making in their own lives.
Which is what most of us take for granted here in the States and also throughout Europe...

BTW... Nice Post Ceri...

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"C'est parti mon Kiki "

Well just to let you know in case you haven't heard yet, Britain has launched Tomahawk missiles into Libyan military bases with the HMS Triumph, along with the USS Barry. Britain's also sent along a few bombers and fighter planes to intervene. France has also sent a few bombers. Pretty sure its a proper war now.

Really......
So does this mean we let another Rwanda, Somalia scenario develop
This was not a civil war when the protest's began. Gaddafi made it so...
How many times does western nations just stand by ??
Let's bring it closer to home, in your neighborhood, let's say Drug Gangs are controlling the streets, would you just sit back and let the cancer grow or would you get involved and contribute to the goal of eradicating that destructive force and return your neighborhood where you you can walk around at night as well as during the day and have a normal social community... That is such a typical outlook.." Oh I do not want to get involved "
Wonder why our reputation is less than stellar in that region of the globe..

As far as Japan, they are light years ahead of us regarding disaster preparedness. And since they are still an Empire with very delicate protocols, you have to abide by how they wish to coordinate their disaster efforts.
Throwing money is not the solution when there isn't a proper channel in place.

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"C'est parti mon Kiki "

I suspected as much long before we would hear or read of it.
It would be rather stupid to herald the mission thru the press before actual engagement occured.

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"C'est parti mon Kiki "

you and i dont always see eye to eye, but man your spot on right here bro. spot on.

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63supro
"The good thing is in a club situation, most of the patrons are trashed and really can't tell the difference."

yeah didnt we give them the big heads up a week before we hit the beach after 9/11 ?
i think we did. "3....2.....1..... ready or not here we come".
been playing hide and seek with the bad guys every since.

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63supro
"The good thing is in a club situation, most of the patrons are trashed and really can't tell the difference."