ok more of pre-band if anything. me and my friend have been planning to make a band for years, and i was looking forward to it.....but now, i really dont wanna do my original songs with him. heres why. my goal, as a songwritter, is to write the simplest songs i can. why? because i like it. i dont particually like playing songs with complex riffs, endless solo's etc. i've tried many times, didn't appeal to me. i like listening to it, but i dont like to play it. he plays very incredibly complex, fast beats, which is great to listen to. but he insist's that i play almost speed metal type of stuff. he reckons i should start writting metal songs instead of just rock. now is it just me or is it that it sounds like we have creative differences?? we've tried resolving it, numerous times. i mean, he puts bass drum 8 times in a 4/4, 220 bpm bar! but he still reckons i should change my style of writting. i've suggested to him that i reckon he should find a original writter, who wants to play his style of drumming OR write his own songs, not try to get me to change. its just not getting through to him. an the fact that he's constantly on my back about me writting metal songs is driving me insane! i'm not a original heavy metal guy....far from it. i'm open to idea's, just not some ideas. i've made my some of my songs sound weird, partly cause of him, i've played them to him, but he still thinks there to simple for him.

i dunno if half of that made sense or came out the write way, but how do i tell him "no i'm not changing my approach to song writting". believe me, we've tried 9999999999999999999999 times to work it out, have not some to aggremant a bit.

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riley

It seems to me that you guys are on a way different path from each other, better to cut the band ties and stay friends. If you both can't find a middle ground and keep pushing for your own way neither of you will be happy. It isn't worth doing if you aren't enjoying it.

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the vacuum store is a lot like the guitar store. but they do not attract the same clientele as the guitar store, cause if they did, the vacuum store would be loaded with a bunch of broke guys who just wanted to run the new vacuums.

To be honest dude if your both open minded then having many influences in a band can be really good.
My last band I had the main influences of John 5, jim root and lenny kravitz, the bass players were soundgarden/pearl jam, the other guitarist was tom morello and indie, drummer was lamb of god and the singer was ozzy and motorhead.

Although all rock music, all varying styles, and because we were open minded about each others opinions and influences we made some really good music.

You may not want to play lead for example, so get your mate to do it if thats what does it for him, you can play the simple rythms.

Peace

to me, if your gonna take the title as "song writer" you should also be able to write
hard/fast stuff as well as "your style" and everything surrounding.
thats like a mechanic should be able to work on all makes and models, or at least very close to it. a dentist can work on all the teeth in a mouth,
a interior designer designs in all rooms of the house, a painter can paint the whole house,
and the examples go on and on. a real song writer writes song for whatever the situation calls for in my opinion. that kinda give you the defination and differences between a
guitar player and a guitarist. a guitar player plays guitar and usually has one or two types of music he likes to play, example rock/blues. a guitarist can cover a wide range of situations from rock, blues, country, jazz, funk, metal, whatever the situation is
he/she can get in and get involved. so ask yourself, are you a "song writer" or somebody that just wants to write songs? is your buddy a guitar player or a guitarist?

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63supro
"The good thing is in a club situation, most of the patrons are trashed and really can't tell the difference."

There's no such thing as "too simple." If anything it is good to be simple, once you have a solid base you can just add things to that. If anything, too many musicians try and make things too fast or complex and often times alienate their audience, leaving them wondering what the hell they just listened too. That being said, quite a bit of the best metal is just really a simplistic 3 chord rock song that is called metal because it was played by Black Sabbath or some other famous metal band. What I would do is try integrating both of your approaches, perhaps the quiet loud quiet theory that worked out quite well for almost every band in the 90s or something like that.

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I traded my car in for a microphone.

Hey Riley,
Let him write his songs... and you write yours... It could be a positive mix playing them together...

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Hey, Boy Blue is back!

"to me, if your gonna take the title as "song writer" you should also be able to write
hard/fast stuff as well as "your style" and everything surrounding."

I agree and disagree with you. Songwriting is an extremely personal expression and a person can grow in the skill/technical aspect of it, but they really have to do it in their own way.

Case(s) in point:
I would rank Springsteen as a good-to-great songwriter, but he definitely has a formula about his songwriting. Verse-Verse-Chorus-Bridge-Verse-Chorus-Repeat "hook line" 20 times-Outro.

Bob Dylan rarely deviates from from slow- to mid-tempo songs (yes, there are specific songs or interpretations of his songs that disprove this point, but it's not the common Dylan song that does so).

Billy Joe Shaver sticks to basic, mid-tempo country music. The only time you hear something other than what he is (a nine-fingered redneck from Waco) is dependent to who is playing in his band at the time...but his lyrics read like poetry. (I rank him up there with Townes Van Zandt and Dylan, BTW).

Willie Dixon (arguably the best blues songwriter ever) had a recognizable style that had little deviation outside of blues (other people's interpretations of his songs notwithstanding).

The Ramones, Jimmy Reed and Elmore James wrote the same songs over and over, just changing the lyrics and occasionally the (musical) hooks/riffs...but they are great examples of great songwriters, for their genre.

I don't put myself on the level of any of the songwriters listed above by any means; I've been writing songs for almost thirty years, but the first few years the songs were limited in scope and style...because I was only a teenager and had fewer life experiences than other people. Some of the songs I wrote I couldn't yet play the music in my head, but I played a simpler version of it until I was able to technically lay the music down. I sometimes had to ask people to "play down" to my level; the better, more experienced musicians who were secure in their abilities were willing to do that, and they often gave encouraging, helpful suggestions. The ones that wouldn't do that were jerks or were unable to use their imagination (more than one time I told those uncompromising guys to "write a better song, if mine suck so bad;" They rarely could). Now, at age 40, I can write songs in various styles (blues, rock, outlaw country and variations/combinations thereof), but I still end up sounding like me.

Riley, since you're young and fairly new at songwriting, you're going to have to feel your way around until you're comfortable and have the experience of what works for you. If you aren't comfortable writing complicated rhythms or melodies, or even faster/harder edged songs, that's cool. You may get to that point, or you may never get to that point. I think you are going to have an interesting lyrical perspective (due to some of the challenges you've had in life, health-wise).

If the drummer is not willing to compromise or play to your strengths, then he is not a good bandmate. You may have to meet him half-way as well, because it's a two-way street. Remember, Cobain had to struggle to find guys who shared his vision and work ethic, too. Keep it up--everything you've set out to accomplish, you've done...I know you're on your way to becoming a good songwriter.

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Good Vibes To Y'all!



Screamin' Armadillos
Texas Roadhouse Music
Guitar/Slide Guitar/Harp/Vocals

What you're describing is an "arranger" not a song writer. You wouldn't ask Da Vinci to paint in the style of Van Gogh, would you?

There's some good points about songwriters that only write for themselves and only to their strengths, but what about songwriters like Leon Russell, Kris Kristofferson, and Carole King, they that can write any style for any performer.

Or Joe Walsh, Joe Satriani, John 5, Eric Clapton, and those artists that write very different when collaborating than when alone.

Try not to limit yourself, quite the opposite, RAISE THE BAR! Put "Your Songs" in a folder for yourself and start writing music for the group. If you can't write a decent collaborative song, TRY AGAIN!

Find your limits, but don't impose them on yourself.

Good Luck with the group

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"Persistence Is The Father Of Invention"
-Crazy Old Man In Training

[quote="Screamin' Armadillo"]"to me, if your gonna take the title as "song writer" you should also be able to write
hard/fast stuff as well as "your style" and everything surrounding."

I agree and disagree with you. Songwriting is an extremely personal expression and a person can grow in the skill/technical aspect of it, but they really have to do it in their own way.
quote]


i agree with you to a point. here your mentioning guys that have already established themselves. we are talking about someone just starting out here. you need to cover all the bases and have a good solid knowledge. you never know who will hire you to do what these days. the bigger your base the more you have to offer all the while developing your own style. its about getting your name out there and getting your work noticed as many ways possible until you set a name for yourself.
then you can specialize into what ever music genre he/she choose's.
if your writing country in a rock/metal dominate area it wont do you a whole hell of a lot of good to have a stack of country tunes on hand.
case in point. i have a friend of mine who is a song writer/key board player thats
in demand in nashville. his schedule is so backed up he cant see the light at the end of the tunnel. i asked robby how he manages to stay so busy. hes says its because
hes very diverse in his writings and playing. knowing how to write and play a varity of music styles allowed him to be able to retire by the time he was 28yrs old, hes 42 now, with awards in rock, country, and jazz as a writer. hes toured the world over several times and says its to busy of a lifestyle for him, he would rather write than tour.
i'll take his word via experience that being diverse is the key to staying busy and with a
constant paycheck coming in. he says the best thing about it is hes not famous, but his work sure is.

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63supro
"The good thing is in a club situation, most of the patrons are trashed and really can't tell the difference."

no offence but please look up the defination of an arranger.

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63supro
"The good thing is in a club situation, most of the patrons are trashed and really can't tell the difference."

Hey Riley, my advise to you would be to write what makes you happy. Yes, it's nice to have a large variety of influences that everyone in the band brings to the table with their playing, but it's really important to learn how to blend it to make it work. For example uin the alternative rock band I play in the main songwriter is into indie rock, the bass player is into fusion jazz and metal (that complex stuff you were talking about), the violin player loves the Beatles, the drummer is into punk and hardcore and my thing is blues. But somehow we're able to find common ground and we know each other's strength and weaknesses and we try to play to our strengths. No one tries to make the singer/songwriter do jazz, no one tries to make me play sweep arpeggios or tapping, and no one tells the drummer that he would sound better with brushes. But if we didn't respect each other's individual styles we'd end up fighting like cats and dogs.

But remember that bands can be like that best friend you had in elementary school who you thought you'd know forever but never saw again after fifth grade. They come and go and sometimes you won't see anything else on the horizon and you don't know when or if you'll be playing in a band again. But keep practicing, keep writing and whatever happens, happens. When I was about 15 I just played in my room and wondered if I'd ever meet anyone who was as serious about playing music as I was or if I'd ever be able to find a band. It took several years to come together but now I play out fairly regularly with several bands. So hang in there, things will come together when it's time.

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Website: http://www.rebeccalaird.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rebeccalairdmusic
Twitter: https://twitter.com/beckslaird
Instagram: http://instagram.com/beckslaird

As a song writer, I can feel where you're coming from Riley, but at the same time I agree with the guys that say to meet in the middle and compromise. Personally, in my experience, playing in bands with musicians that had different experience and influences is one of the most fun things about being a musician. Everyone can always bring something different to the table and more often than not, you can learn something or someone can learn something from you. Stepping outside of your comfort zone a bit may open you up to new ideas, and different song structures.
That being said, if you really are set in the style of music you want to play (and it sounds like you are) then your best option will probably be to spend the time looking for like-minded musicians rather than continue beating a dead horse and forcing yourself to play in a situation that you're not happy with.
Whatever you end up doing man, good luck!

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Check out my new FB music page!

https://www.facebook.com/TheDevilandMe.Music

Writing to your strengths isn't limiting yourself, it's developing what's already there...especially when you're starting out as a songwriter.

Your examples of Walsh, Satriani, Lowery (5's real name), Clapton, etc. writing differently when collaborating is true; however, those guys collaborate with people who respect their individual style, strengths and abilities. It seems Riley has saddled up with a guy who doesn't respect what he's writing.

The idea of compromising (especially if it makes you "raise the bar" musically) is what most of us here have suggested...but Riley's drummer seems like he won't compromise or collaborate. He just wants Riley to write/play stuff he either doesn't want to write or doesn't have the "feel" for writing.

TexasGuitarSlinger's example is very telling; yes, the people in her band all have different styles, but they respect one another. Without that respect, you have a band that bickers, fights and ultimately breaks up.

I also think that you're forgetting that Russell, Kristofferson and King (all heroes of mine) had to start somewhere. They didn't come out of the womb writing the masterpieces we all know and love. I think Riley's still a jr. high student, and while he might be focusing on a particular genre right now, through growth (as a songwriter and as a person) and collaboration (with people who are respectful and willing to compromise), he'll do fine.

Riley's too determined to succeed...that's why he won't fail.

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Good Vibes To Y'all!



Screamin' Armadillos
Texas Roadhouse Music
Guitar/Slide Guitar/Harp/Vocals

yeah he's not willing to compromise a bit, he claims he already has, but he hasn't really. i think we'll end up in a fight sooner or later....

ps; i'm just in high school, i think the education system is different here and over there

pps; all your responses have been some really good advice. thank you

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riley