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Post subject: Re: Fender logo on aftermarket products, legal?
Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:43 am
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ZZDoc wrote:
.......and if you want to split hairs to the nth degree here's what it boils down to as far as I have been given to understand in other matters: If you change 'one hair' on that Custom Deluxe...it is no longer a Custom Deluxe. In that regard, and even more thinly sliced. If you replace any Stratocaster component with non-Fender part, or any part that would not routinely found on a Stratocaster it is no longer considered by law, to be a Stratocaster, but rather an S-type guitar. A Stratocaster, or any other Fender brand product is defined strictly by its components specifications which, once altered, change the definition and the permissibility of the use of the name.


I disagree with that statement totally, and would love to see actual case law to support that assertion. If you buy a Honda Civic and slap a silly wing on it, it's still a Honda, it's still a Civic, and it's still silly.

In order to avoid committing fraud, you would have to disclose any changes to the instrument, but it's no longer an issue that involves Fender in any way.


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Post subject: Re: Fender logo on aftermarket products, legal?
Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:31 am
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OK... So I'm glad to see some opinions reflect " I can do what I want and the world be damned" :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Fender logo on aftermarket products, legal?
Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:46 am
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Without going into any great depths here, it wouldn't hurt to have an understanding of some of the terms that get used and misused here and elsewhere from time to time so you can at least see what is the violation

What is Copyright?
Copyright protects "original works of authorship", including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other works published or unpublished.

What are Copyright Rights?[
The copyright owner has the exclusive right to (or to authorize others to) make copies, distribute copies, adapt the work, perfrom the work, and display the work.

What is a Trademark?
A trademark is a word, name, symbol, or device that is used in trade with goods or services to indicate the source of the goods or services and to distinguish them from the goods or services of others.

What are Trademark Rights?
Trademark rights prevent others from using a confusingly similar mark, but not from selling the same or related goods or services under a clearly different mark.

What is a Patent?
A patent is a property right granted on a new, useful, and non-obvious invention (e.g., process, machine, manufacture, composition of matter, or improvement thereof).

What are Patent Rights?
What is granted is the right to exclude others from making, using, offereing for sale, selling, or importing the patented invention,

Intellectual Property Rights and "Territoriality"

Copyright: generally protected by international treaties and conventions. (Registration not required but there are advantages to registration in the U.s. Registration available in other countries but advantages can vary greatly - must evaluate carefully.)
Trademarks: protected on a country-by-country basis. (U.S. rights are based on use. Registration not required, but has advantages. Most other countries: registration required to have trademark rights.)
Patents: granted on a country-bycountry basis. (Rights relate to the granted patent.)

courtesy USPTO


Now "FENDER®, STRATOCASTER®, STRAT®, TELECASTER®, TELE®, P BASS®, PRECISION BASS®, and the distinctive headstock designs of these guitars are registered trademarks of Fender Musical Instruments Corporation. "

For the record, Fender hasn't licensed the manufacturers previously mentioned to make replacement necks, they licensed only reproduction of the shape of their headstocks. Applying a Fender decal to a non Fender product is an illegal use of trademark.

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Post subject: Re: Fender logo on aftermarket products, legal?
Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:22 pm
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Jamesvroy....Great.!!!

This sums up this thread, this argument as far as I'm concerned is settled. :roll:

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Post subject: Re: Fender logo on aftermarket products, legal?
Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:46 pm
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jamesvroy wrote:
Without going into any great depths here, it wouldn't hurt to have an understanding of some of the terms that get used and misused here and elsewhere from time to time so you can at least see what is the violation.......For the record, Fender hasn't licensed the manufacturers previously mentioned to make replacement necks, they licensed only reproduction of the shape of their headstocks. Applying a Fender decal to a non Fender product is an illegal use of trademark.


Well put and welcome to the Forums. Thanks for the primer. Exactly how I've come to know it over the years.
Doc

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Post subject: Re: Fender logo on aftermarket products, legal?
Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:05 pm
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[quote="gar1013I disagree with that statement totally, and would love to see actual case law to support that assertion.[/quote]

Of course you would (on both counts, I might say), And belated welcome to the Forum. It takes awhile for new friends to become accustomed to how to handle things around here. As Bug Bunny might wont to say....."Unlax and enjoy!"

To the point, then. I was cited a cell phone case which he used as an example of how switching out a component created the issue. His and my paths may not cross next week but ASAP I will endeavor to satisfy your curiosity. (So you will have a sense of the 'arena' my friend plays in, the :the image of the polo player on horse which appears on the bottle of your favorite cologne?... is one of his clients...among others of its ilk :wink:) Stay tuned.

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Post subject: Re: Fender logo on aftermarket products, legal?
Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:14 pm
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Ceri wrote:
TimDrakeMusic wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong

Well OK, but only because you asked...
TimDrakeMusic wrote:
I believe trademark laws and copyright laws are similar in the sense that as long as you don't use the trademark/copyright to make money then it is legal.

Nope, that's entirely wrong. For starters, trademark and copyright law are not similar, they are two different and distinct things, though they both relate to "intellectual property rights".

With copyright it is illegal to reproduce copyrighted material regardless whether you make money from it or not. A very obvious example is music file sharing on the internet.

I'm sure you want to tell me about kids in school photocopying books for their studies. That is an instance to which the publishing world politely turns a blind eye, but it is not an exception enshrined in law.

With written material there are some limited exceptions. There is the concept of "fair usage": a short extract of up to 400 words can be copied in the context of a review or similar, though that does not apply to poetry or song lyrics where 400 words would in all probability exceed the entire work.

In fact, there is an interesting issue with song lyrics: any quoting of lyrics is illegal. For example, authors often want to quote a line from a song in their novel - and if their agent, editor or publisher doesn't stop them they later find themselves paying astonishing sums of recompense to save themselves being dragged through the courts. There was a charming example of a writer who thought it nice to use a different Beatles lyric for each chapter heading in his book. He lost half the book's income as a result.

On the other hand, a fascinating exception is that there is no copyright on titles. If you want to call your novel Gone With the Wind or your album Dark Side of the Moon nobody can stop you.

So now we're all looking forward to Dark Side of the Moon by Tim Drake. So long as it doesn't contain any music or lyrics from the Floyd's version it is perfectly legal. Amazingly uncool, but legal... :lol:

Cheers - C

PS: this stuff is my wife's job. The above info is reliable.


Nice response there Ceri. Thanks for the info. I clearly was way off on my thought, and it's definitely a subject that's good to be educated on. Your music sharing example was a good one, and makes perfect sense.
That being said, I would hold my breath waiting for my 'Dark Side of the Moon' project if I were you. :lol:

edited to remove a stupid question lol.

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Post subject: Re: Fender logo on aftermarket products, legal?
Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:01 pm
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[quote="TimDrakeMusic......edited to remove a stupid question lol.[/quote]
.
.....Just to show you how 'stupid' your question was, look at the response it brought and from whom. Nicely done there, Tim. You nevvver know!

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Post subject: Re: Fender logo on aftermarket products, legal?
Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:07 pm
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Not this topic again huh Doc?!! :wink:


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Post subject: Re: Fender logo on aftermarket products, legal?
Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:46 pm
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fhopkins wrote:
Not this topic again huh Doc?!! :wink:


It tends to inflame the 'incredulity' component of the human psyche of some of this lot, Lite'nin. Search me to know why it gets their backs up, but the law's a strange game. :?
My friend represented a major international cosmetics brand in an action brought against them by another. (Names witheld for obvious reasons.) I read the 89 page final opinion by the judge in his client's favor. You can't believe the nuance of law that governs the protection of these trademarks.
Not too long ago he was ruminating about the fact that some time that morning he had to make a 'call' as to whether or not a client's $5 million investment in a product line's planned release could or could not go because at the last minute they became aware of a potential trademark conflict challenge. Think of it...$5 million bucks turning on your flipi of a coin. They spent the remainder of that day fine tuning the thing such that he was satisfied that it would move unimpeded.
In that business with "The Frankencaster" using Fender logo script. I brought the copy on the train with me and showed it to him. In the blink of an eye he told me that if it went on the guitar, for the owner's own use it was OK but if it were ever reproduced for distribution to others, as was being requested by members of the Forum who loved the idea, [and it was easy to understand why], the act would be unlawful.

I can understand the disbelief when someone learns that if you aftermarket mod a Fender Stratocaster from it's original specs it technically cannot be referred to as a 'Fender Stratocaster' any longer, or not even a Stratocaster, but the law is written to protect the integrity and veracity of the brand and the product it represented according to the standard that the manufacturer has created for it. I'll pursue the details on the cell phone question as soon as possible. It was a very interesting wrinkle.:wink:

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Post subject: Re: Fender logo on aftermarket products, legal?
Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:01 am
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ZZDoc wrote:
[quote="TimDrakeMusic......edited to remove a stupid question lol.[/quote]
.
.....Just to show you how 'stupid' your question was, look at the response it brought and from whom. Nicely done there, Tim. You nevvver know!


Indeed Doc. I am always happy to learn something new, especially when it is something that could concern me in the future. Not so much the trademark issue, but the copyright issue. Although I never saw the previous topic on this subject, it seems that it was quite the 'discussion'. Hopefully this one will continue in a civil manner.

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Post subject: Re: Fender logo on aftermarket products, legal?
Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:52 am
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TimDrakeMusic wrote:
[issue. Although I never saw the previous topic on this subject, it seems that it was quite the 'discussion'. Hopefully this one will continue in a civil manner.


..........It was...quite a discussion. It may have as well been embraced the issue of the ethics and morality of selling necks, neck plates and COA's apart from the guitars they came with.....I've since decided to remember it as 'reliablefender (StratoSphere)controversy.', but the partscaster project stirred it as well. In the end he really turned out a beautiful guitar. A link to it was just posted on the "Somebody talk some sense into me" thread. Have a look. You'll be able to back track the entire thread that way, and have an understanding of how and why it was my friend counseled on the use of that.

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Post subject: Re: Fender logo on aftermarket products, legal?
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:33 pm
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ZZDoc wrote:
01GT eibach wrote:
guitslinger wrote:
I always wondered why Slash's non-Gibson made Les Paul has the Gibson logo on it too,especially where Gibson has been all too quick to jump on copyright infringements in the past.

Is it really a known fact that Slash plays non-Gibson Les Pauls ... or is this a myth?
... He came on to the scene playing LP replicas. That's been a known fact for years. Far be it for Gibson to look a gift horse in the mouth at this point in his career. All he can be is a huge plus for them to sell product. Similarly with ZZTop. Many of their instruments are 'brand-type' in appearance, but logo free, and built on order by a luthier ...

Okay, back to the Slash topic ... Your comment really only solidified my point. Because he came on to the scene (when was that? 25 years ago??) with Les Paul replicas, we are to assume he is still playing non-Gibson Les Pauls that are labeled Gibson?? This ... now while endorsing Gibson?? It sounds utterly perposterous for us to assume that. And "assuming" seems to be what is going on here. Slash may have a couple of his old replica gits that he picks up from time to time, but all the newer guitars he plays are true Gibson. Unless someone maybe has some facts to make us think otherwise? And your ZZ Top comment is really not valid here ... we are not talking about non-branded one-offs; those are extremely common all over the place.

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Post subject: Re: Fender logo on aftermarket products, legal?
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:21 am
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Back to the topic which concerns itself with how far from stock one can stray before a product is no longer permitted to be referred to as 'brand'. The case my friend handled had to do with refurbishing cell phones and it was contended that changes made in the 'nature' of internal components used for the refurbishing warranted disallowing the use of the 'brand' name to describe that phone. Apparently the landmark case involved refurbishing Champion Sparkplugs such that the 'nature' of the components used in the refurbishing were different from the originals, thus the use of the brand name was challenged and disallowed.

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Post subject: Re: Fender logo on aftermarket products, legal?
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:32 am
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Slash's Appetite for Destruction Les Paul was made by luthier Kris Derrig; Slash has used it extensively on almost every album (GnR, Snakepit, Solo, on other artist's discs) that he has recorded...he has other guitars, and more likely tours with other guitars (due to sentimental and monetary value of his original fake). It's funny that Gibson has now issued a signature model based on a fake Gibson.

ZZ top has used John Bolin's creations and modifications for years. Many of the axes they use on stage, in studio and in videos are custom one-off creations, but more often than not, they have a Gibson (or rarely, Fender, as in the case of his Esquires with the rubber tops that he stuck knives in, or the "Think Buck Owens" Esquire) name on the headstock (see BFG's "Rock+Roll Gearhead" book). Of course, some of the guitars they play are from the actual manufacturer (including Dean, Gretsch, Gibson, Fender and many others). Most have a variation of the Pearly Gates pickups.

It must go back to the "Good publicity outweighs the legality of the issue" theory in the minds of Fender & Gibson. BFG even had Bolin make some crazy variations of the Gretsch Billy-Bo Jupiter Thunderbird, including the mirror image "hcsterG" model. Billy designs most of these custom guitars to one degree or another, and Bolin makes his ideas materialize.

Dusty Hill doesn't mind playing whatever is made for him, as long as it has the same neck profile of his old Telecaster bass that he used extensively in the early days of the band.

As far as whether changing out parts (including pickups, necks, etc) disqualifies the guitar from being an actual "Brand X"; we all agree that SRV's "First Wife" and Jimmie Vaughan's main guitar (the beat up white one with his initials in stickers on the upper horn) are Stratocasters, right?

Both of those guitars have replacement necks (Jimmie's neck was made by Charley's guitar shop, but it had a vintage Fender Logo on it). SRV's "Lenny" had a replacement neck, too--the new neck was given to him by Billy Gibbons. The original '65 neck had rosewood fretboard, and it was installed on another guitar he owned.

Clapton's "Blackie" and "Brownie" were both pieced together from the parts of five different guitars he bought from George Gruhn in the early 70s. He took the necks he liked best and put them with the pickups and bodies he liked best...the remaining three guitars he gave as gifts to various friends (including George Harrison). I would still call them Stratocasters, albeit modified.

As long as modifications or replacement parts are noted, and the buyer is aware what they are getting, it's not legal but it's done all the time.

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