Just looking for some expert opinions.

My Yamaha acoustic is a cheapo $200 guitar but it has everything going for it as far as playability of $3000 Martins and Taylors except of that rich ooommph tone with overtones. Yamaha sounds fine but with only simple fundamentals, everything else in regards to tone is too quiet to matter, it is a student model at the end.

1. Is is worth while spending $ on the pickup (is is going to make it better sounding through the amp for recording), or should I just save for better guitar and leave this one as is for my students?

2. If you think the pickup is the good option to go for, which pickup would you recommend? (guitar is straight forward acoustic with nothing on it).

3. For recording, as an alternative, I can simply mike is with the SM57 or SM58 and in that case what would be recommended mike placement to start with and I will tweak it from there?

Thanks again

sounds like you really like the Yamaha and I can't blame you they are great acoustics for the pricetag. If you like the guitar then I see no reason not to put a pickup in it. You have to decide if you like it enough to upgrade it or if you feel another guitar would suit you better and your budget will allow for that.

K&K Pure Western is a very solid acoustic pup.

_________________
Blues with a feeling.

GUILD GUITARS: MADE TO BE PLAYED!

About 25 years ago I put a Yamaha acoustic pickup in my Yamaha FG-346 and it works great.The pickup consists of a main part with a hum cancelling single coil in it and a piezo electric strip that goes under the bridge.There is no volume control as such but there is a blend pot that balances between the single coil and piezo.Everyone who has played the guitar is amazed by the sound variations that the guitar has ranging from a Gibson J-160 E or a highend guitar with a Fishman.Regretably I don't know the model as there is nothing at all on the pickup but the Yamaha logo and the box is long gone but if these beauties are still made they're well worth checking out.

_________________
'65 Strat,65 Mustang,65 Jaguar,4 more Strats,3 vintage Vox guitars,5 Vox amps,'69 Bassman with a '68 2-15 Bassman cab,36 guitars total-15asst'd amps total,2 vintage '60s Hammond organs & a myriad of effects-with a few rare vintage ones.

Hi Dan,

first off, thanks for putting up a question about acoustics! A field I like very much!

So, the goal is to record acoustic guitar? Or are you trying to also improve your live sound?
Let's assume it's only about recording.

When recording acoustic guitar, usually you mic the guitar. This could be anything from one to 4 microphones, including one or two room mics. Recording the guitar through the PU has it's uses, but the pro way -or let's say the established way- would be to mic the guitar, not the amp.

Reason being, that most acoustic guitar PUs out there are piezo -style PUs. They have a very characteristic sound, and you will not get that "warm" or "airy" sound, to me the piezo sounds a bit "squeezed", if that makes any sense.

Also, mic'ing an acoustically challenging instrument like acoustic guitar is usually not done with the otherwise trusty SMs. Their frequency response is great for a lot of situations, but in this case you want a large diaphragm condenser mic, or a lipstick mic. These microphones are able to pick up very fine harmonics which will make your guitar sound rich and deep.

However, there are a few things to take under consideration.
1. Does your guitar have a solid top or even body?
Most acoustics in this price range play great, and sound great to the ear. After mic'ing them, however, they tend to sound dull. That is usually because their bodys are made of plywood, which lacks density and harmonics, especially in the highs. You will come to notice these characteristics when you record the guitar with higher-end microphones and preamps and the likes.
2. Placing the microphone(s) is an ever changing challenge.
On first instinct folks place the mic near the sound hole or somewhere in the vecinity. As a first step that's great, but try holding one ear shut with your finger and really "sourcing" the sweet spot of the instrument with your open ear. It is fascinating what you will be able to find.
In my experience, with lower quality guitars, the most radiant spots are nowhere on the top of the guitar, but on the side, around where you would usually find the preamp module on an acoustic with a PU and preamp. This makes sense, because with these kind of guitars, sitting and playing them sounds much better than being opposite of someone who is playing the guitar for you.
In this case it makes absolute sense to unorthodoxically mic from the side.
(Sometimes it even makes sense to place a mic facing the back of the body, but only if you have another mic picking up some string strumming sounds from the front somewhere.)
3. Working with two microphones is usually best.
Most times when I record acoustic guitar in the studio I tend to place two mics pointing at different spots on the body. One usually below the sound hole or on the lower front of the guitar, pointing at below where the player's elbow or lower arm is. You will have to experiment.
You will then have the chance to pick up some "bassy" sounds and some "trebly" sounds through the two mics and mix them together in your mixer or software, making a realistic balance somewhere in between.
4. Getting a really high-end PU.
There are PUs nowadays, for instance the Rare Earth, which have a great near-acoustic sound. There are also mixed ones which combine piezo and a microphone inside the body. I have heard these recorded and they sound fantastic. However, it's quite a bit of surgery to a cheap guitar, and those things weigh heavy on the wallet.

So in conclusion of this undoubtedly long and confusing text, I would suggest you start thinking about microphones. They might come at a similar price as a decent pre-amp would BUT you can use them for different applications, like vocals etc., so you get much more mileage out of them. May I ask what your recording rig looks like at the moment?

Anyway, I wish you all the best!

Cheers,

-Nutter

Wow, Thanks Nutter, I was hoping for this type of detail.

Here is more info

1. Guitar has a solid sitka spruce top according to Yamaha, mahagony/rosewood neck and plywood body. This guitar is lacking the mentioned tone qualities of the fine guitars,
It however sustains quite well. I am trying to figure out if it is worth upgrading this thing with the pickup system to get more out of it both live and for recording.

2. I thought it's me but truly the guitar sounds a lot better to my ear when I am playing vs someone else.

3. I own SM 57 and 58s only. I am trying to get a semi decent results with a better sound. It does not have to be perfect studio quality and am also banking on the room acoustics to help (I realize now it might not help with the dynamic mic).

4. Recording rig:

SuperChamp XD (line out) if recording electric OR sometimes miked DRRI.
Mics (SM 57 & 58 few of each kicking around)
Presonus audio interface (no lag two channel, with preamp and phantom power)
Digitech JamMan sequencer/looper (single channel preamp - can be combined via separate usb as additional recording channel)
Intel IMac (4GB ram) - GarageBand/Presonus studio
Monitored via Sony headphones.

I know that this list above is not much for studio recording by todays "standards", but it beats 4-8 track tape recorders that made many famous back in 60-70s. I am very happy with the recording quality for the electric. Just trying to learn if the current acoustic sound can be upgraded with what I have. I tried the acoustic signal processor on the XD but don't find it quite the sound I am after.

Cheers

Dan

Right.

The presonus is a great start. If you want a tip I can share a trick I worked out one day.

I had a Shure Beta 58 which has quite a nice curve. I unscrewed the grill and pointed it at the top. Record that, add some compression (i believe there are nice ones in GarageBand - tweak the acoustic presets) and some EQ (slightly lift the highs) and you should have a good sound.
So if you take your SM 58 and take off the grill, you should at least get tons better sound as off a piezo.
In your case I would not include room sound. Try and get as clean a guitar signal as possible and add room later with a small bit of reverb. (platinum verb I think it's called).

Then install a good piezo for live gigs and you're good to go!

(when recording you can always add the piezo signal as a "foundation" to your sound. Sometimes we move around while playing, it can therefore be helpful to have a signal which does not vary in velocity. However: learning to sit still while in front of the mic is preferable )

I hope this helps. Sorry if err on the GarageBand plugins. I'm either on Logic or ProTools these days so I may be wrong.

Thumbs up mate! You're on a good path!

-Nutter

+1

Pickups in acoustics are more for live situations and I feel for the money K&K pickups are some great sounding and low feedback sensor pickups. However, the best performance for recording acoustic will be two good mics placed in the right positions, one near the 12-14 fret and one near the saddle or sound hole. The placment will need to be adjusted and manipulated based on the style you play and tone you seek. I have recoreded acoustic with a Sensor pickup and a mic near the 18th fret with some success. But I had better results with 2 mics.

I don't have time to read through all these replies... So I will just say what I think and what I did... I prefer soundhole pickups-- here is mine
http://www.letstalkguild.com/phpBB2/vie ... =5&t=22460

Inside the body (or under bridge) pickups are feedback monsters... What I did was take a soundhole pickup and soldered it to a strap button jack... It was a very easy install and it works/sounds awesome...

If you buy a soundhole pickup BUY A HUM CANCELLING one... single coil soundhole pickups are insanely noisy..

_________________
In Reference to Blues Legend RL Burnside:
After a heart attack in 2001, Burnside's doctor advised him to stop drinking; Burnside did, but he reported that change left him unable to play.

Here are some simple samples

http://www.esnips.com/web/fendermandan-Music

Acoustictest1. SM 58 pointing from both sides of the sound hole

Acoustictest2. SM 58 pointing from top SM 57 back

Acoustictest3. SM 58 top SM 57 pointed at the bridge

This was taken in one take each. Comments positive or negative are welcome.