Gentlemen: interesting. Protectionist tariffs to keep out competitive and desirable foreign product. That's a corner stone of... Communism.

Was that what you meant? I bet it wasn't.


Hi guitslinger: I applaud your feelings and actions.

There is a fundamental problem here. One day people will be bitterly complaining about the rise of foreign manufacturing and lamenting the (apparent) decline of domestic product. The next day (as we endlessly see on this very Forum) they will be bitterly complaining about the price of that domestic product.

They want stuff made by people in their own country instead of by scary foreigners - but they don't want to pay for it. At least not enough to make it economically viable. You, like I, have lost count of the posts on this site by people whining about paying $950 for a US Strat (for example). I suspect this year's price rise will be coming along shortly. Just wait for the next round of outraged threads...


Name 'em, why not? Is it this one?

Anyway.

There is a combination of solutions to this issue. As Nick says, not buying foreign product just condemns the very people we affect to care about to unemployment, which is an even worse fate in their countries than in ours. Instead, we need as consumers to put pressure on companies to be ethical in their sourcing; to be vigilant about conditions in factories to which they contract out; to insist upon minimum standards. Also, we need to back that with regulation (not tariffs), so that ethical companies don't lose out to less principled ones.

And then we need to be prepared to pay the higher prices that will necessitate.

And that's the tricky bit, isn't it? That's when we find out how much we really care. Hmmm...

Now, as guitslinger says - on with the letter writing.

Cheers - C

PS: Nick, does that Behringer City story remind you of anything? Cadburys...?

_________________

i totally disagree

_________________
63supro
"The good thing is in a club situation, most of the patrons are trashed and really can't tell the difference."

Hi WCjr: go ahead. These things affect us in my country in exactly the same way as you in yours.

Was it the bit about regulation you didn't like?

Cheers - C

_________________

Gentlemen: interesting. Protectionist tariffs to keep out competitive and desirable foreign product. That's a corner stone of... Communism.

dont want to keep out foreign products at all. most are better than american made anyways.
as for the communism, we already have a lot of it in practice here anyways according to
a few close friends who grew up in a communism based society.
i agrued that point and they said the reason i didnt see it was because i didnt know nor have i lived in a communist society. they went on a long story and gave endless example
of which i was to closed minded to remember at the time as it was yrs ago.
communism has plenty of good ideas, but as a whole is where it becomes undesirable.

_________________
63supro
"The good thing is in a club situation, most of the patrons are trashed and really can't tell the difference."

OK. ...So what was it I said that you "totally disagreed" with? That protectionist tariffs are a corner stone of Communism, or that they are a bad thing?

Cheers - C

_________________

YIKES!! such as...? Not trying to start an argument but I would be interested in hearing of the "good ideas" of Communism since I am not aware of them.

_________________
Blues with a feeling.

GUILD GUITARS: MADE TO BE PLAYED!

Me too! I travelled a fair amount in Russia and other Eastern Block countries before the Berlin Wall came down, and more recently in China. I met many nice Russians and others - and discovered that I absolutely did not want to live in a Communist country. Simply because it didn't work very well and was grey and cold and grim.

And just because we seem to be having a bit of a "misunderstanding each other" day on the Forum, we need to be very clear that I don't think anyone on this thread is a Communist. Very much the opposite I strongly suspect, from everything I've ever read in this place of people's views.

Which is why I'm so surprised to see a central plank of Communism (protectionist trade tariffs) being advocated so enthusiastically by people I take to be Capitalist free marketeers.

Protectionism is not the solution.

That's what I was getting at.

Cheers - C

_________________

+1

Communism is despotism. GREY.

_________________
Blues with a feeling.

GUILD GUITARS: MADE TO BE PLAYED!

Way

I'd really ask you to re asses the statement about countries not affecting each other. Just think about it, think about the global economic crash and where it originated.

Hopefully you'll see exactly how flimsy your point was.

Ceri
Cadbury's was more like Charlies chocolate factory last time I visited. All trains and chocolate based experiments. Though yep I definitely see the similarities between what Uli has implemented and what Cadbury and Rowntree also set up back in Victorian times.
Raising the standard for the workers, making them happier. Like I said previous Fender too have similar good practice in Mexico.
I wonder how Marshall are performing in Vietnam? Do they follow suit and look after their employees?
I'll have to have a look into that, because despite being a long time Marshall devotee, 3rd world exploitation is enough to make me turn my back on them.
I'll have to write Jim a letter asking. Then have a look for myself. If not, I'll be petitioning my MP into doing something about regulating how UK companies conduct themselves abroad. That is about all I as a everyday man can do.

I wonder if Fender used the Korea Cort factory for the Korean guitars. Maybe that is why we don't see those excellent instruments in the catalogue? I'm pretty sure given Fender's presence out east. And the whole way they operated with the Japanese factories in the 80's. Buying them and using them as a strength rather than pursue a costly legal case and ultimately cost jobs. The Squier plants of various nations and that companies continued growth. That they would have withdrawn their custom from a factory operating as a sweatshop, namely Cort Korea, if they ever used em.

So c'mon GS, spill the beans.

_________________
No no and no

Indeed.

I think Marshall contract out their Far East stuff rather then owning their own facility - do I have that right? Which doesn't excuse bad practice in the slightest: just drawing a distinction between that model and Fender's wholly owned Mexican operation. That much more effort has to be put into assertaining conditions in a factory you don't own. And that means you have to make the effort, not turn a blind eye.

Be more than curious if you manage to find something out.


My understanding is that that is where my Korean Lite Ash Strat came from. As you say, really excellent quality work at the price. I shudder to think it was made under the conditions guitslinger has drawn our attention to.

More info, please!

Cheers - C

_________________

Sadly Ceri, it looks like it could have been.

Reading on the site GS linked. Plenty of people have petitioned Fender about their use of Cort in producing Squier guitars. Fender are investigating factory conditions. Perhaps the most disturbing thing of the plight of Cort workers is the sexual harrasment that female workers suffer.

http://cortaction.wordpress.com/2010/01/22/the-word-from-fender/

Theres a lot of conjecture and not entirely fact based statements presented as fact on that page. Still I would like to know the official response from Fender. I can't believe that a company who takes so much pride in their factory conditions would let that slide, despite it not really being their responsibility. I wonder how this would be viewed if it were Schaller abusing employees? I think Fender take it that a company proffesional enough to meet their demands are a standup crowd.

_________________
No no and no

This, from the webpage you linked to:

On the positive side, if they depend on Fender for that much of their business that translates into muscle on Fender's part. And responsibility, of course.

"We want better conditions in your factory", Fender need to tell them.

"OK, but some of that is going to cost", Cort will reply.

How do we, the consumers, feel about that? That's our part of the whole thing.

Cheers - C

_________________

Even if it meant having to pay as much as $100 more for a MIK or MIC guitar,knowing that the workers were working in a safe hassle and abuse free environment would make it worthwhile to me as human rights and freedom are priceless.

_________________
'65 Strat,65 Mustang,65 Jaguar,4 more Strats,3 vintage Vox guitars,5 Vox amps,'69 Bassman with a '68 2-15 Bassman cab,36 guitars total-15asst'd amps total,2 vintage '60s Hammond organs & a myriad of effects-with a few rare vintage ones.

@nikininja before you rant off and call something naive, read a bit more. Next line said "it's just a joke" changing the world isn't simple like that... sheeesh.

Sorry ive been away today... Let me clarify... In my opinion, if we tax the manufactures big time for buying imported items for resale (when they could make them themselves) it may make the American (host country) think twice about shipping our jobs across the boarder or Over seas. Again just my opinion... It DOES NOT MEAN I WANT OR THINK COMMUNISM IS A GOOD THING

This thread may be getting a bit heavy for a bunch of guitar players... So what brand of strings are you guys using?

Bill

_________________
Hey, Boy Blue is back!