If I remember correctly wasn't there an awesome article about pickups in Guitar Player magazine a year or two ago? It explained just about everything you need to know.



That book has now been added to my Christmas list and forwarded to my parents.

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I don't need anyone unduly unhappy to get me to participate. They just may be after I have.



All I would offer on this is that magnet types are like magnet strengths, they don't matter that much in themselves as much as the whole circuit of the pickup matters (bobbin height, number of winds, etc).
Point of case being Tim's true statement that AlNiCoII is a weak magnet that gives a softer attack. Well I've some AlNiCoII magnet singlecoils, that have so much attack, I struggle to play the guitar with a plectrum, it's just too much. (BareKnuckle Sultans http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/ZS-thesultans.html). As for them leading to lower output, most of the classier humbuckers available are based on AlNiCoII magnets. Nothing low about their output.
Not that Tim is wrong, just that there are a lot of other things in play. Certainly there are lots of AlNiCoII based pickups that exhibit those exact qualities. There's just too many factors in play to put it all down to the magnet.

Bill Lawrence is a voice in the pickup world that isn't heeded enough. A true master of design that doesn't get the recognition he deserves.
It's well worth taking a read of his writings down the lefthand side of this page. Some real jems of information there. Note his statement that a magnet has no sound of itself.

http://www.billlawrence.com/Pages/All_About_Tone.htm/Pickupology.htm

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Hmm...I have kind of gathered through my browsing tonight, that what you're saying is indeed a true statement niki. I was listening to sound clips of various pickups and regardless of the magnet material, there were examples from dark to bright all across the board. The main differences I did note was that the Alnico V in general were a bit hotter, although there were still exceptions.

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Check out my new FB music page!

https://www.facebook.com/TheDevilandMe.Music

Yeah Tim absolutely, like all good designs, these things have to be thought through from the ground up. No point trying to make a super hot pickup with magnets weaker than Pee wee. The opposite is true too, you wouldn't build a low output pickup with a super strength magnet.
These things are guidelines, but not the whole story. A story I don't fully know and in truth not anything I ever plan on building. So I probably won't ever get to learn more about it than the smidgen I already know, which aint a lot.

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No no and no

gotta love technology.
when i was a kid ya carried your but downstairs with the sears
catalog and pointed lol.

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63supro
"The good thing is in a club situation, most of the patrons are trashed and really can't tell the difference."

hey theres the man himself lol.
ok niki thank you for supporting tim on his post about this.
just reconfirms my thoughts that i probably dont even need to worry about it as just knowing they are only a piece of the puzzle and not the whole thing is a start.

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63supro
"The good thing is in a club situation, most of the patrons are trashed and really can't tell the difference."

Yeah don't get too caught up in it. If a pickup sounds good, it sounds good. If it sounds bad, it sounds bad. No matter what it's made from. Personaly I think that SCN's and Hot Noiseless are a much better sounding pickup than Vintage Noiseless. Shows how much difference AlNiCo over ceramic magnets makes. I gave away the ceramic magnet pickups out of my MIM before I put vintage noiseless ones in. Did I weep over that poor decision for days! I ended up midboosting the guitar just to get a usable sound out of em. Then ditched all but the neck pickup ontop of that. Really not my thing at all despite the spec sheet looking like their right up my alley. 9.5K R, humbuckers on AlNiCo magnets. Some people love em, their not wrong to, they just didn't suit me.

Seriously read them links on Bill Lawrence's site. Whilst Mr Lawrence isn't always the easiest teacher to understand, he won't feed you BS to sell product. His plan is, make a handfull of pickups that he thinks are good. You either like em or you don't.

As I've said before. It's one reason Seymour Duncan deserves so much respect. He stands fully, 100% behind his product. If you don't like it, he'll swap em within a certain timeframe. I may not like the Jazz and JazzBlues pickups, but I like the guys style. Very classy and inspires nothing but confidence.

BTW if you want to know my opinion on who's the best pickup maker these days. It's the same as it has always been. Go to the guy that made replacement pickups and parts possible. Larry Dimarzio.

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i started off with larry and have went to seymour these days.

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63supro
"The good thing is in a club situation, most of the patrons are trashed and really can't tell the difference."

Ha! BareKnuckle Sultans: my favorite pickups of all for a Strat. Very expensive: highly recommended.

It is absolutely undeniable that magnets are only one element in the pickup ingredient stew. Put 5000 winds around an AlNiCo V set and you'll have a low output pickup. Put 10,000 winds round an AlNiCo II and it'll be hot as chilli peppers. Regardless the supposed properties of the magnets.

And yet. I can't help noticing that my fave pups usually seem to contain AlNiCo IIs - and anything with ceramics in seems to strike my ear as harsh and abrasive. But a man can get lynched round here for dissing ceramics - so I won't!

And there's always Lace Sensors to turn everything you think upside down...

Elsewhere AndyBigHair has talked about someone he knows building pickups using fridge magnets. I'd like to hear more about that!

Cheers - C

Aren't lace products based on ceramic magnets?

The Holy Grail is
http://www.lacemusic.com/electric_pickups/holy_grail/holy_grail_specs.php

Hot Gold's are barium ferrite (what is that, some form of iron?)
http://www.lacemusic.com/electric_pickups/hot_gold/hot_gold_specs.php

Can't find any mention of magnet material on the sensor range. Being ever the sceptic, I'd suspect ferrite or ceramic. Particularly with the complexity of the pickups internal workings.

http://www.lacemusic.com/electric_pickups/lace_sensor/lace_sensor_specs.php

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And magnet material, mass and strength and shape constitute only one combined part of the equation, as has been said. There is a whole school of hotshot bobbin-winders who profess the purity of the copper wire, its gauge, depth and winding shape all colour tone. A la Fender's legendary Lady Abigail Ybarra....

And lest ye forget, then you are feeding the signal into pots and jack and through a cable. Length, mass, size and weight-wise, those are huge constituents of signal modification, and that's all happening before you even get to the amp input jack.

Think of a pickup as an electric motor. Your picking the string provides the "power input," like a battery or wall current. And then, more of the magic takes over....

Yes,

It is the Gestalt of tone: The tone is greater than the sum of its components.

Hence my remark about them turning what we (I) think upside down.


Congratulations on the first use of the word Gestalt on the Forum this year - getting close to the wire on that one. How phenomenological of you!

I must go and beat a cushion...

Cheers - C

Great read, eh, Ceri?

-Nutter

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I started out with nothing, and still have most of it.

Huh? Sorry, which read?

I've just been reading up on Gestalt theory to make sure I didn't use the word "phenomenological" inappropriately. But I suspect that's not what you're getting at...

BTW Nutter: I am currently researching a reply to your email. Standby. All kinds of timberific excitements in store!

Cheers - C