Seriously.

I went to Guitar Emporium in Louisville today to see if I could get a deal on a used black Toronado they had in stock (I did; I bought it for $397 with a brand new Levy's gigbag, a pack of strings, and a neat old brass slide; that price was down from $450 for just the guitar and the bag) and while I was there, they had a slew of vintage Fenders: two mid-60s Transitional Strats and two late '50s P-Basses.

One Strat, which was a '64 to '65 was $8,000 and the other was a '65 to '66 and it was a whopping $15,000. Both P-Basses were around the same price; one was a '58 and the other was a '59 I think. I visually groped them for a bit when I first walked in, then went around and checked out whatever caught my eye on the wall.

So, after I had checked out the Toro and a few other Fenders, I went over to the stands and made myself get over the shear magnitude of the sticker shock on each Strat and picked each one of them up.

They both had chunky, D necks (yes, like SRV's Strat). They both were in about the same condition: like they had been thrown out of a moving truck at least once during their long near 50-year life span. They had cracks in the pickguards. The nitro was checked and was wearing off in spades.

The patina was cool, there's no denying that.

I put the $15,000 Strat back on the stand and screwed around a just bit with the $8,000 model because, well, if I'm going to wind up breaking something and have to end up washing dishes at $@!&#* Barrel to dig myself out of a damn deep hole for the rest of my adult life, it's better to do it to the tune of $8,000 rather than $15,000.

I managed to play a couple of riffs and HAD to put it back.

Why? Was it because it had spoken to me far louder than any other guitar out there? Was it because I knew it was something I could never own?

No. Not at all.

I hated the way it played. Once I had managed to get past the historic and patina influenced factors, it played terrible. Not because I didn't like the thick, hearty D-class neck. Quite simply, that guitar was on it's last legs, in my opinion. It wasn't because it wasn't set up right. The dudes at the Emporium covered all of the bases there. It played god-awful because it was a 50 year old guitar that had had a very hard life and, in all honesty, shouldn't have been commanding a multi-thousand dollar price tag.

I'm sure the '65/'66 wouldn't have been any different. I can damn well just about guarantee it.

I had a friend with me who tried out one of the '50s P-Basses. He said that his '97 was a far better playing bass than it was.

I'm not saying that there isn't a good playing vintage guitar out there. I know there is and I'm not arguing that. But once you start boiling the fat away to leave the gristle, you realize blowing so many thousands of dollars on an old name-brand guitar doesn't make a whole lot of sense, especially when you can pick up a newer guitar and have it blow it completely out of the water in terms of playability and sometimes in terms of tone (footnote: when I'm talking about a newer guitar, I'm not talking about my Toro, I'm talking about a few newer American Standard Strats I had picked up there and previously; I'm not one to compare apples to oranges).

I'm honestly curious as to how my Strat would stack up against an actual '67 Strat with the exact same specs. The pickups are constructed similarly if not exactly the same (I have CS '69s in my Strat with gray bobbins wound by someone who more than likely wound the original gray bobbin singles) and offer pretty much the exact same tone. The body wood is ash, which some '67s were made out of, and it has a maple-capped board with all maple fretboard-equipped '67s had.

I can be so bold as to say my guitar could flatten the real deal in terms of playability (because I play mine and maintain it religiously and it hasn't been horribly abused and battered) and would be damn near indistinguishable in terms of tone.

So what's the advantage when everything aligns just about perfectly, regardless of how old something is? What justifies the cost?

Nothing.

Save the banter like how Fender used screws that were .0000000001 inches shorter "back in the day." That's some useless artifact that ultimately bears no effect on the end result. Yeah, Leo was around during the early days of the company, but so what? What does some historic significance have to do with how a damn guitar plays and sounds?

Nothing.

CBS didn't intentionally make late '60s and '70s Fenders cheap. No, they didn't. The three-bolt neck design was Leo's idea (that's why Music Man and early G&Ls had that feature too), was more expensive to make, and was just as sturdy as a four-bolt design with a correctly-cut neck pocket. (The neck pocket on my Superhawk was very tight and very sturdy as was the one on my '72 Tele Deluxe RI.) The large headstock was another Leo idea as well as it seems, when you start to do further research (although this is still debatable; I do remember thinking my G&L's headstock would have been comparable to a large Fender one if you started putting wood back on it though). CBS did screw up some of the contouring and trotted out the diecast bridges, though, but that's just another example of a company trying to cut costs so that they don't go broke. Modern FMIC does this too; why else did they use cheaper trem blocks in the MIM Standards for so long? To cut costs and make more profit. Notice how the base price shot up on the Standards when they updated them to include better parts?

The vintage market is a rather disgusting fad and once you get past all of the [EXPLETIVE DELETED -Brad], you realize it can't sustain itself much longer. It's built on a cornerstone of shear falsehood and mostly ignorant misconceptions about construction and history. Remember how people loved flannel and torn-up jeans during the '90s? That went away after the Grunge music scene fell out of the mainstream eye and people grew tired of it. Maybe it was because they found it redundant to pay good money for clothes that looked used? I think so.

Eventually people are going to grow tired of spending insane amounts of cash on old guitars that really aren't meant for them to play anymore (and spending a hard-earn couple of hundred bucks on relic guitars). Most of these old guitars aren't even player's guitars anymore. Their original owners either died, ran into a hard spot, or just wanted some money. The original players of those guitars, the folks who had grown used to all of their foibles, are gone out the picture for good and whoever gets them that intends to play them afterward are basically screwed.

After that much time an instrument becomes a very personal thing, if it wasn't already from the start.

Don't get me started on collectors, either.

Sorry for my very long rant, but I'll no longer buy a guitar or any other piece of gear strictly because it's vintage anymore. I'm over buying into the hype.

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2006 Fender AVRI 70s Stratocaster: Natural Ash | Sovtek MIG 60 & A No Name Cabinet | Pedals & Junk

"I don't know what collectors are thinking, but let me say this to you if you are strictly a collector buying this $@!& up and not a player: $@!& you."

People collect things that are old. And these things increase in value. This extends to many things besides guitars. Get used to it and get a life.

I'm not a collector, but if I was, I wouldn't even give your comments a second thought.

As a matter of fact, I won't give em a second thought now.

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(obviously a phillistine......)



Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY

looks like they were thrown out of a truck at some point......




Brilliant.

Yes i have failed to grasp the whole thing myself, as a young man, I remember seeing the whole pre-and post CBS price gouge going on, how can it be that the same employees using the same materials on the same machines decided to flip a switch and go from the greatest guitars to junk overnight?

And now you see the CBS ones going for big bucks as well.

It's all about making a buzz to raise the value to get more money out of something for no good reason.

But it is a free market, and if someone will pay that price for it, well good for them.

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Marriage is like playing cards...

At first all you want are Hearts and Diamonds.

But in the end, all you really want is a Club and a Spade.

Have to disagree with this, people will always vintage guitars. The market in the USA may fade somewhat but vintage American made guitars will always be popular and highly sought in other places in the world. One of our biggest exports is antiques and vintage items from the good ol days when we actually made things here in the USA.

I see the prices dropping slightly at some point, but vintage guitars will always be sought after.

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Blues with a feeling.

GUILD GUITARS: MADE TO BE PLAYED!

Some of it is the "Greater Fool" theory of economics.

You'll be a fool to pay $8,000 for an old Stratocaster. But when you find the greater fool to pay you $10,000 for it, you are no longer a fool.

Watch out though- the property market actually used all the fools faster than they were being born.

Don't really care one way or the other about your opinion, everyone should have one,but I am offended by some of the words you used to express it. Not cool and against the forum rules so try to express yourself without the curse words please. Thanks.

A lot of vintage Fender owners will tell you that mostly modern guitars are superior.
Makes sense when you think about it. A 54 strat has what 3/4 years experience behind it's manufacture. A 2010 guitar has 24 years experience of manufacture behind it.

I'm with you Pheonix, I don't want some ropey old junk cluttering the place up. *mostly*.

Personaly I just don't see why CBS guitars are getting any increase in value at all. Their hit and miss pieces, ok the earlier ones are as Jeffytune said, decent guitars. The latter ones less so. I just don't see how they can have a blanket increase in value. If you're going to be a purist about it, they are only a Fender as much as say a FMIC or Squier guitar is. Their not like the FMC guitars that were made by the man himself.

For instance would you be happy to shell out muchos spondoolicks on say a 77 strat that was a real dog. One of the really bad unplayable ones?
Would you be happier to pay more for say a 57 that was as much of a dog? For arguments sake say both are all original.

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No no and no

I think you mean "FEIC", Nick.

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY

Yep you're right. Thanks.

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No no and no

Well, there's three minutes I'll never get back. Some good thoughts here but please cool it on the expletives -- thanks.

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Director at Fender. Guitarist & guitar collector. All views/opinions expressed here are my own and not Fender’s.

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man, i thought you were making a good point until the end. what's up with the cussing?

I put more emotion into that rant than I thought.

Well, where to start ...

1.) I guess I made myself clear before the final editing that I don't like people who strictly collect guitars. They really are like speculators price gouging something that, by all intentions, shouldn't have much of a value just so that they can go to sleep at night knowing they're not complete idiots for spending $20,000 on what someone thought was trash. And when a collector gets a nice, multi-thousand dollar guitar, they put it in a glass case to look at it. They don't play the guitar they spent so much money on (because a lot of collectors never learn how to play), they set it up somewhere and basically watch it fall apart completely. That's a real shame and a complete waste. The less than perfect examples -- the scraps basically -- are what you see being offered to actual musicians and it's still at some pie in the sky price.

2.) ... However, perhaps I shouldn't have used such an offensive tone to express that. Just overlook that if you can. I was up until 4 am last night with very bad neck pain and I needed a punching bag.

3.) SoCalStratPlayer: First, read above. I understand people like things that are old. I understand these things increase in value. But can you give me one good reason why they should increase in value at all, eclipsing the prices of their newer equivalents that function better? I don't think there is one ...

4.) Jeffytune: Agreed on all points.

5.) BlackCatBone: The only other places that I can think of that buys into the vintage hype as bad as we have in recent times are Japan and most of Europe. I can see them following our suit when interest begins to trail off and more stuff is being made here again (it'll eventually happen; China won't be able to give the US cheap labor for much longer ...).

6.) Thrasher: Agreed. Good analogy using the housing/real estate market as well.

7.) 985: First, let me suggest you read point number dos. I didn't think I was contradicting myself and I didn't mean to say all vintage guitars play like crap, just most of them and especially the really beat up ones. I mean, what's a car with 1,000,000 miles going to drive like? A car with 1,000,000 miles. It won't feel very reliable out on the highway. Same thing with a beat up guitar. It's a beat up guitar so that's what it'll play like. Yeah, it might look cool to someone, but aesthetics should be one of the last reasons why you should buy a guitar.

8.) NS: See statement number 2.

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2006 Fender AVRI 70s Stratocaster: Natural Ash | Sovtek MIG 60 & A No Name Cabinet | Pedals & Junk

If I'm NS then I'm cool with statement number 2!!

Not at all. No matter how terrible a guitar might play, it deserves to be used by someone who can fight through that and treat it right.

A guitar as a mantelpiece just disgusts me.

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2006 Fender AVRI 70s Stratocaster: Natural Ash | Sovtek MIG 60 & A No Name Cabinet | Pedals & Junk