ok niki stick with me here.........
what did you mean by "pull your strings" when tuning down?
im still kinda lost on the whole string tree thing. i guess its because this is the first ive ever heard of this. besides 99% of my guitars in the past were floyd equipt. what purpose does the sting tree actually have?
they do make graphite string trees so binding is at a minimum or so they say.

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63supro
"The good thing is in a club situation, most of the patrons are trashed and really can't tell the difference."

What the string tree does is to force the string down at a sharp angle behind the nut.
This makes the E&B strings ring out properly. It does the same for the G&D strings on 70's style guitars with two string trees.

If you get a 50's/60's guitar and strike the open G string. You will hear a kind of square wave character to the note. That becomes less prevalent if you change string gauge either down to a .013"-.014" or up to a .018" and above on the G string.

Locking tuners usually have this staggered height thing going on to eliminate the need for string trees. Well it doesn't work. They simply do not provide enough down pressure behind the nut.

So if you still need a string tree, the added benefit of a straighter string path is null. You're still going to get hangups on the string tree. The raised stringtree that fender put on their deluxes doesn't do the job either.

The traditional way round the problem is to put a lot of winds around the tuner post. Everyone below the last. This forces the string down and increases that back pressure. It can create tuning problems though, if you're not neat and tidy winding that string onto the tuner.

If you do that you will lose all benefit of the locking tuners regarding both stability and speed of string change. The locking tuner relies on as few turns/windings as possible to give any of it's supposed benefits. It's not a clamp system like the locking nut. It was never made to do that. It is simply a very fast tuner when you come to restring your guitar. Pull the string tight, lock it down. A couple of turns and you're up to pitch. That is all it was ever meant to do, the rest of it is marketing gumf and has no place in the real world. Remeber the classic sales pitch of 'the extra weight of locking tuners adds mass and thereby increases sustain and tone'. An absolute load of old tosh.
If you put a lot of basketweaved winds around a locking tuner post it will give as poor stablity as any other tuner on the market.

Now onto tuning. Once you have your guitar string at pitch, all wrapped nicely around the tuner post. What happens if you suddenly release that pressure? The string goes flat but the winds around the tuner post move too. They lose their original good, tight seating. No doubt creating friction points along the winds. So when you're playing and bend up the extra tension you put on the string causes the string to slip on that friction point. Then when you release the bend you notice the string has gone flat.
What you need to do is ensure that doesn't happen. Should you need to tune down theres three good options.
Either pull the string tight as you would when stretching strings in whist minimaly turning the tuner.
Just pull the string.
Slacken the string right off, pull it tight and re wind it back up to pitch whilst keeping it pulled tight.
I'm constantly bending up a couple of whole tones on my trem bar on my 57HR. Not had a single tuning issue yet. The majority of this last year I've gigged the guitar, thrown it in the boot of the car and not took it out for a week. Until the next gig. Never needed anything more than a slight pull or tighten on one or two strings.


The real solution to the problem of the stringtree is to angle the headstock back ala Gibson. That design is not without it's problems though. The 3 aside tuner arrangment causes a bent stringpath that causes a hell of a lot of the tuning problems gibsons suffer from. (note you never hear of Vee's suffering tuning issues).
What you really need is a straight stringpath on a back angled headstock.

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No no and no

Thanks Niki, Thats a great explanation, I know when I change strings, I get a least 2 or 3 winds on the E, A,and D and a few more on the G,B,and E Keeping it neat with the first wrap over the string the rest under, keeping tension on the string the whole time. I pull the string while fretting up the neck to stretch it, and then tune to pitch. And ...WayCool jr. I bend a Lot as well when playing a lead and it never goes too far out of tune, I don't know How aggressive you are playing to have that big of an issue with tuning, but you might want to check your bridge, tuners. or nut, maybe your neck setup. also I never break strings and I use 9's I believe that the method you use in string up your guitar, does make all the difference.

ok niki, im getting on board with your idea here.
its not new news to me but i never believed it totally as
ive always been a floyd guy.
ok that being said, going off your way of thinking and doing,
do you know a link as to where i can see this string winding
method you use. i want to make dang sure im doing it the way you suggest before i pass comments.
im open to this. i want to experience it first hand.
i dont use my floyd guitars hardly any more so i have to find new options.
im a very heavy string bender. im 80's metal schooled remember, if you couldnt bend you were in serious trouble. you dont hear those kind of bends like that these days. not in sucession anyways lol.
i do want to thank you for the education. biggest thing about starting up again is all the new ideas and ways of doing things. man it hurts.

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63supro
"The good thing is in a club situation, most of the patrons are trashed and really can't tell the difference."

OK I'm lifting these from this site.

http://www.fretshop.net/strings.html

Basically I can't find a suitable video and cant film one myself. I believe my method to be slightly superior to the one on this site.

Step 1 cut your string to length.
I go dead center between the tuners. This picture looks a little too near the D string tuner for my liking. I cut my low E to center between the A and D tuners.


Poke that string in the hole of your split post tuner.
Now what I do that this guy doesn't do. I place the righthand index finger ontop of the string between the nut and the tuner. With the remaining 3 fingers I pull the string tight above the fretboard. As I wind onto the tuning post.
So instead of doing this.


I'm keeping that string under as much tension as I physicaly can by doing this with my right hand, whilst my left hand winds the tuner.




What that is doing is keeping them winds as neat as possible.

That method does hurt your fingertip a little. The low E is probably the easiest string to do but hurts the most. The high E is quite difficult to keep tense and doesn't hurt a bit.

Thats how to get your strings wound neatly onto the post with no real room for them to slip. You've taken all the slack up before you start turning the the tuner.

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No no and no

ok i do close to this already. maybe i have to many wraps.
i'll give it a shot.
im looking to put a JB jr (pick up tomorrow) in my new to me
HW1 very very soon. the guy that owned the guitar before me uses
10's super slinky's. i just dont like 10's on a strat i dont think.
might go back to 9's. (your opinion on this with the JB jr tone wise as i dont know what to expect)

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63supro
"The good thing is in a club situation, most of the patrons are trashed and really can't tell the difference."

I found the Jazz Blues and Jazz pickups to be very bland. No good for metal at all, nowhere near enough attack. Just a really plummy kind of overwound PAF sound on the JB. The Jazz was more along the lines of a regular PAF but nowhere near as defined a sound. I had em in a Jackson RR3

Sorry I can't think of one Seymour Duncan pickup I do like. Dimarzio rule the roost in singlecoil sized humbuckers as far as I'm concerned. The Fast Track 2 is a supreme pickup for metal. Loads of attack without losing the body of the sound. Their singlecoil sized humbuckers are designed differently too. They don't just take the spec of the pickup and cram it in a smaller package. They measure the sound of the full sized humbucker and create a singlecoil sized version that sounds the same regardless of spec.

If you're after full sized buckers then EMG or BareKnuckles MiracleMan/Warpigs/Nailbombs are the way to go for metal sounds.
Go with the Warpig for good clean sounds too.

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No no and no

i had a beck kramer yrs ago. i do like the JB fullsize.
its was just enough.
i want a kick you in the balz tone from a single but not take on
the full heavy metal tone. just a good solid rock pickup that will get my OCD or my boss metal zone pedal. i use to be a marzio guy too.
just wanted to try something different.

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63supro
"The good thing is in a club situation, most of the patrons are trashed and really can't tell the difference."

Only an American Deluxe has them and as said eloquently earlier, SOP is to tune anything whenever it's picked up, anyway.

The Fender locking tuners can't stop string expansion/contraction which is really common in metro Chicago's constant up-down temps and humidity, which pulls/drops guitars out of tune, anyway.

The subject of locking tuners is similar to that of HSS vs. SSS, LSR nuts and other this-vs-that issues. It is a polarizing issue with proponents on both sides. Debating these issues becomes increasingly less valauble the longer you are a member of this board as sooner or later you come to a place where you've read it all before at least 20 times and you start to realize very few people ever change their original opinion despite the evidence and testimony of others.

That being clearly understood, I'll go on record as saying I like the Schaller lockers. It's my opinion that except for the lack of any vintage value there isn't anything other tuners can do that Schaller lockers can't do just as well or better. Some have said they aren't reliable. I've been using them for 21 years (since I first tried them in 1989) and have never had a single issue with them and my guitars get played a lot and restrung alot.

My 2¢

I will also say that I think the simpler design of the PRS lockers is likely the best tuner on the market.

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Just think of how awesome a guitar player you could have been by now if you had only spent the last 10 years practicing instead of obsessing over pickups and roasted maple necks.