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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:25 am
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you will find in every conversation on this topic that its the
"play by ear" folks standing strong that theory isnt needed.
little do they realize thatthey use theory in their playing every time the pick up the guitar, most of the time they just dont know what to call it lol.

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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:47 am
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Really?

So tell us how do you use theory WayCool? Which aspect of music theory do you put into daily practice? How does that influence your composition?

Besides which I never said that theory isn't important. I'm being very misread on this thread. You can get away with no theory at all for seemingly ever.
What greats of guitar do compose by theory only?
Like I said, it's importance is greatly overrated in modern music, particularly guitar. It's got no real use aside from chord structure,

I know of plenty of good guitarists that compose by ear only.
I know of a handfull of boring musicians that compose by theory knowledge.

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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:11 am
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lol you dont quit do you?
everybody uses music theory dude, they just dont know it.
building chord progressions, knowing which scale to use over that progression, building chords and scales, knowing how to play a harmony over that progression, its all based on theory.
adding notes or taking away note from a chord to change its value, again theory. people just dont realize that they are using theory when they do this. "well it sounds good". it sounds good for a reason lol.

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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:47 am
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No I don't quit, ever. Especialy when I know I'm right.

You can do all of that, that you mention and know no theory at all. Take the standard Berry 5th-6th rhythm guitar riff that every beginner learns. Probably before they even learn what notes the open strings are. Does that beginner know theory? No. They know that riff sounds good.

Also looking at musical history you'll find that theory is entirely based on hearing. Thats why theres so many different takes on what third's fourth's and fifth's should be.
John Harrison's ideas on intervals set by PI was completely based on what he heard then measured. A accurate scale of music rather than the meantone rough approximation musicians today use.

So which fifth do you use in that riff? Baroque narrow? Wide? meantone?
How can you have accurate theory to base a system on when you use uneven intervals?

All music theory really is, is a good way to express an idea. Based on a old arabian method of writing musical instruction.

BTW tabelature is much older than score.

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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:23 am
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nikininja wrote:
playalot86 wrote:
nikininja wrote:
Gotta go with Jeebus

A good ear is way more important than any of that stuff.



Keep in mind that there are many factors to become a great musician. Ear Training is only a part of it. The guitar is an instrument just like the Violin, Cello etc. Playing by ear only gets you so far. It is important for you to make the decision on how far you want your playing to go. You make the call on whether or not you want to take your playing to the next level.


I really don't think that is a hard fast rule mate. Not one bit. Particularly with guitar the opposite seems to be true. All the greats are ear players. It's not dependant on theory learning at all but rather dedication to what they do.
I stick by what I said. You can play by ear and become a Clapton or a Beck. You can get trained and become a Malmsteen. May be a fast excellent guitarist but couldn't write a song to save his life. You see the same malaise with Satriani and Vai too. A complete inability to throw down a handfull of chords and make em work to something that people want to hear.
Who is the better musician in that instance. The Chuck Berry's, who everyone can enjoy. Or Vai/Malsteen/Satriani types that only get a audience from certain muso's?
Which one is the better entertainer, the most heard?

BTW I threw Berry in there because he is classicaly trained. Yet is a prime example of a terrible guitarist. Out of tune, out of time. But relied on a great ear to write his songs. He certainly didn't get Roll over Beethoven from studying Beethoven.



This is why these sort of topics are very interesting. I never said it was a hard fast rule. The thing is everybody believes in what they believe and it is always going to come into conflict with others. My real opinion is let music be music and however you learn good for you. That is all I meant by what I said. The thing is though people cannot simply say what they want to say without someone with a more lax definition coming in to talk. My opinion is there is no correct response. Music is so abstract that there is no proper "how to" for any instrument. If you love playing guitar like I do however you want your guitar journey to go that is up to you; ultimately, this is what I was trying to say.

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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:56 am
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playalot86 wrote:
nikininja wrote:
playalot86 wrote:
nikininja wrote:
Gotta go with Jeebus

A good ear is way more important than any of that stuff.



Keep in mind that there are many factors to become a great musician. Ear Training is only a part of it. The guitar is an instrument just like the Violin, Cello etc. Playing by ear only gets you so far. It is important for you to make the decision on how far you want your playing to go. You make the call on whether or not you want to take your playing to the next level.


I really don't think that is a hard fast rule mate. Not one bit. Particularly with guitar the opposite seems to be true. All the greats are ear players. It's not dependant on theory learning at all but rather dedication to what they do.
I stick by what I said. You can play by ear and become a Clapton or a Beck. You can get trained and become a Malmsteen. May be a fast excellent guitarist but couldn't write a song to save his life. You see the same malaise with Satriani and Vai too. A complete inability to throw down a handfull of chords and make em work to something that people want to hear.
Who is the better musician in that instance. The Chuck Berry's, who everyone can enjoy. Or Vai/Malsteen/Satriani types that only get a audience from certain muso's?
Which one is the better entertainer, the most heard?

BTW I threw Berry in there because he is classicaly trained. Yet is a prime example of a terrible guitarist. Out of tune, out of time. But relied on a great ear to write his songs. He certainly didn't get Roll over Beethoven from studying Beethoven.



This is why these sort of topics are very interesting. I never said it was a hard fast rule. The thing is everybody believes in what they believe and it is always going to come into conflict with others. My real opinion is let music be music and however you learn good for you. That is all I meant by what I said. The thing is though people cannot simply say what they want to say without someone with a more lax definition coming in to talk. My opinion is there is no correct response. Music is so abstract that there is no proper "how to" for any instrument. If you love playing guitar like I do however you want your guitar journey to go that is up to you; ultimately, this is what I was trying to say.


Yeah absolutely. It's all about the way you interact with and think about music. The end product (what you hear) is way more important than the method of getting there. Thats why theory is in no way important and a good ear is. It's the primary interface with music, theory on the other hand is just a good way of verbaly expressing a idea. Or writing it down. Though score isn't too good at conveying expression.

What we call music theory is a very different beast to what was music theory 500 years ago. I have no doubt that what we now think of as the perfect major scale (though it is far from perfect) will have changed again in another 500 years.
Hence my stance that music theory is not the infallible be all end all of music.
The ear and the brain are. Though in the case of Beethoven it was the sense of touch and the brain as trained by the ear, in his latter compositions.

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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:59 am
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BTW Playalot.
No conflict from these parts. Maybe a very minor disagreement on certain trivialities, but thats about it. Please don't think that I am attacking you.

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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:34 am
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nikininja wrote:
BTW Playalot.
No conflict from these parts. Maybe a very minor disagreement on certain trivialities, but thats about it. Please don't think that I am attacking you.


It is all good here sir. :wink: I appreciate any form of hard musical conversation. I respect everybody's opinion on this matter. I believe that ear training is a part of being a musician as well as many other factors, such as theory and sight reading etc. Some people like to understand what they are playing and how they got the sound they came across. Theory is not for everybody though. I still believe that there is no correct response. Music is too abstract for those kinds of absolute responses. 8)

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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:57 pm
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Deluxe Matt wrote:
It is all important. The more you know and understand the better you can communicate and formulate your ideas. It is not a choice you make between having a good ear or reading and understanding music. You need both. You have your whole life to do this. So, what is important now is up to you.


Allow myself to quote myself,

I would like to restate the above. I need to learn it all. Part of my personality is to define and measure the things that interest me. It helps me to remember things when I know how they work. I have seen a lot of players that smoke me that don't know how to read music. I think the end result depends on the person and how well they know themselves, as far as, maximizing potential. There are some commonalities that we share in learning and progressing but, no one can do it for you. Decide what you think is important about music and invest in that. For me, I am interested in why certain intervals sound good so I want to map it out with theory. Also, I am in it for myself, I don't plan on releasing an album anytime so I'm really only concerned if I like it (and sometimes my wife). Ok, back to my mountain top.


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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:41 pm
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Deluxe Matt wrote:
For me, I am interested in why certain intervals sound good so I want to map it out with theory.


Matt the truth of the matter is that modern music theory is woefully inadequate for that task.
Take a look and see for yourself why.

http://www.lucytune.com/new_to_lt/pitch_01.html

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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:01 pm
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nikininja wrote:
No I don't quit, ever. Especialy when I know I'm right.

Also looking at musical history you'll find that theory is entirely based on hearing.


and your always right niki, always, even in an opinion base post. :wink:

i wonder if shawn dale barnett or evelyn glennie or even beethoven
would agree with you on the above? wonder if they used theory to
write their music?
no i dont know a lot of theory, thank you for remembering, yet i do
study and recommend others to do so as well.
theory, i would rather have it and not need it
than to need it and not have it.
buy if i remember correctly the post wasnt about "if theory was hearing based" it was about playing by ear. sure play by ear if you like, if thats your limits then do so.

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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:22 pm
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nikininja wrote:
Deluxe Matt wrote:
For me, I am interested in why certain intervals sound good so I want to map it out with theory.


Matt the truth of the matter is that modern music theory is woefully inadequate for that task.
Take a look and see for yourself why.

http://www.lucytune.com/new_to_lt/pitch_01.html


Very cool, this will take a day or two.

I may need to solve PI and go fret-less.


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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:17 pm
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Deluxe Matt wrote:
Deluxe Matt wrote:
It is all important. The more you know and understand the better you can communicate and formulate your ideas. It is not a choice you make between having a good ear or reading and understanding music. You need both. You have your whole life to do this. So, what is important now is up to you.


Allow myself to quote myself,

I would like to restate the above. I need to learn it all. Part of my personality is to define and measure the things that interest me. It helps me to remember things when I know how they work. I have seen a lot of players that smoke me that don't know how to read music. I think the end result depends on the person and how well they know themselves, as far as, maximizing potential. There are some commonalities that we share in learning and progressing but, no one can do it for you. Decide what you think is important about music and invest in that. For me, I am interested in why certain intervals sound good so I want to map it out with theory. Also, I am in it for myself, I don't plan on releasing an album anytime so I'm really only concerned if I like it (and sometimes my wife). Ok, back to my mountain top.


I absolutely love this post. Thank you for posting Deluxe Matt. 8)

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Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:18 am
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:D Great topic Masterhacker I love to read thru the comments and see where people come from musically. Personally I started out like many others on this forum was shown a few chords and off I went. Had some informal training along the way at different stages of my life. I only became a decent weekend warrior and fullfilled my fantasies after I buckled down and really studied the basics of music theory and learned to sight read musical notation. I still can't read and play on the fly. It helps when I think I've got something figured out by ear and then look at it and see I've been playing it right or most often wrong. :wink:


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Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:30 am
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tdanb2003 wrote:
I only became a decent weekend warrior and fullfilled my fantasies after I buckled down and really studied the basics of music theory and learned to sight read musical notation. I still can't read and play on the fly. It helps when I think I've got something figured out by ear and then look at it and see I've been playing it right or most often wrong. :wink:


i think just knowing the basics will carry you a long way.
just learning what i have has taken my playing to a different level
and my mind as well.

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