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Post subject: Re: Are there any “Martial Guitarists” amongst us?
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:27 pm
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Miami Mike wrote:
I have it from good sources that this is all I need to know : :wink:

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The night you find the guy on the cover hanging upside down on your bedroom ceiling you might wish you knew more. :?

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Post subject: Re: Are there any “Martial Guitarists” amongst us?
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:24 am
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Allow me to ressurect this thread, as I was willing to post about karate and decided I sould do a search first.


Well, I am turning 40 and play guitar regularly (I'm in a gigging band, have been for a good handful of years), and did lots of judo in my teens. ATM I'm practicing Shotokan Karate, studying for the black belt.

I like it a lot, but I do worry a LOT about hand injuries. I never found any consistent article about contact sports such as boxing and karate and its effects on your finger ability, I mean how bad punching makiwara or heavy bags will affect your playing.

Some say it just won't do anything to your playing, others state that it does, and badly.


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Post subject: Re:
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:53 am
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guitslinger wrote:
I got 5 bottles of Hai Karate after shave for Christmas 1974,does that count?



uuuhhhm no... I don't think it would....


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Post subject: Re: Are there any “Martial Guitarists” amongst us?
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:10 pm
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I’m a pacifist by nature, but Irish is in my blood so I size up each situation as it comes (preferring the first alternative but prepared for the second). At my age I now use my wits and experience as opposed to any other method.

I quit hockey because as a goalie I got PO’d standing in a crease watching my mates slug it out at the other end of the rink. Maybe, for the crowd and me taking a breather it had some merit, but I’d rather play. :? So, at about the same time as getting my first guitar, I vacated to recreational boxing where I had to legally wear proper gloves, mouth guards, and headgear until I was 16 where career searching serious contenders were about to be introduced to me in our club that had Golden Glove trainers. I followed Marguess of Queensberry rules. Nice! I had more teeth than my brawling buddies, and I still have my cute nose. :lol: That’s probably because pulling jerseys over the head to get a punch in was frowned upon in the ring. That’s just not in the rules. In fact it’s not in any rules! Not only was boxing intended to be a fair fight, but tapping fists or as in martial arts, perhaps a bow and recognition to your opponent was quite the opposite of hockey. My head gear didn’t change my nightly brain throbbing afterwards though; however; I can now use my boxing as an excuse for those dah! moments. :P Those guys on the ice probably have more teeth than me today, but less hair. :lol: After moving, we had a Community Center at the corner of our street. My father came home and asked if I wanted to take Judo. His Navy Black Belt friend and work colleague was starting up a new school. For the first few months my Dad asked how I was doing to which I replied, “Well, I’m still getting thrown to the mat a lot.” That's about as far as it went as I turned to music and other things with two legs (not mine hahaha). Even so, I wasn’t about to wear a cape to karate chop and kick like Elvis. :lol: I do think that organized sports that teach patience, respect, and discipline are beneficial to playing guitar alone or with others. It will teach you how to deal with frustration (sometimes). IMHO.

Insert the Rocky theme here 8)
FSB

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Post subject: Re: Are there any “Martial Guitarists” amongst us?
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:52 pm
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[quote="ZZDoc"]Started out in Shorin-ryu about 40 years ago, then to TKD Chung Do Kwan and Jee Do Kwan for a couple of years. Let it go after entering professional school in order to protect my hands. Have always had a strong interest in Uechi-ryu Karate and just bought George Mattson's new book.....signed. He's been the main man in that system stateside for nearly half a century now. Hope to get into that discipline if I make it to Florida and he's still hanging around. Personally, and to quote Mr. Miyagi, I've always thought that a canvas belt was the one to go for. It's deep, but those who are in it will understand my meaning. Go see the new remake of The Karate Kid. Says it all right there. A bow to you all with great respect. [Originally posted in 2010]

Given that the thread's been resurrected, where I left off here I'm picking up from today. I retired 6 years ago end of this month and, the following September found my Goju-ryu Sensei in the person of a personal trainer with a Master's degree in Exercise Physiology and a 3rd Dan grading. I train with him one on one privatedly every other week. As constantly as I can given all the traveling my wife has seen fit to do. about 2.5 years ago I decided to begin training kobudo [weapons] at a dojo in my area. The karate lineage there is Shito-ryu Itosukai....Genbukai Ryu-ha of Fumio Demura. Demura Sensei was the stunt double for Pat Morita in 'The Karate Kid'. Last summer I decided to start training their kata of which I already had some familiarity as they derived from the same roots as those of the Okinawan and Korean systems I trained years ago. So when not being towed from continent to continent I train 3-5 hours per week. I train kata and bunkai [applications]. No jion kumite. I don't need any injuries to complicate my life at age 75. I train for improvement, not for rank and will grade only at the behest of my Sensei in Shito-ryu when and if our dates find themselves in conjunction. Thus far I always seem to be off somewhere when the occasion arises. There' no grading in my Goju-ryu situation. I'm involved in a large Okinawan karate discussion group and have broaden my knowledge base in the martial arts considerably and added to my library. One of my regular 'friends' is the brother of the writer of the screenplay for The Karate Kid. They are both high ranking, seasoned karate-ka of more than 50 years in the art and were trained by icons in the discipline. There is much 'truth' built into the script though the story and the names have been radically altered to protect the guilty. More than that I cannot tell you. Tomorrow there's two hours on my calendar starting at 9:00 a.m. so I'd best be about getting some rest.

Uyukuimisooree!

Doc :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Are there any “Martial Guitarists” amongst us?
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:25 pm
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Your journey in Martial Arts demands respect, and you have mine. Your dedication and focus throughout the years are something to be proud of my friend.

What a terrific story to share. I thank you, Doc.

FSB

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Post subject: Re: Are there any “Martial Guitarists” amongst us?
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:51 pm
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Fender Strat Brat wrote:
Your journey in Martial Arts demands respect, and you have mine. Your dedication and focus throughout the years are something to be proud of my friend. What a terrific story to share. I thank you, Doc. FSB


Onegaishimasu!

Doc :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Are there any “Martial Guitarists” amongst us?
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:33 pm
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ZZDoc wrote:
Fender Strat Brat wrote:
Your journey in Martial Arts demands respect, and you have mine. Your dedication and focus throughout the years are something to be proud of my friend. What a terrific story to share. I thank you, Doc. FSB


Onegaishimasu!

Doc :wink:

Domo arigato. :D

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Post subject: Re: Are there any “Martial Guitarists” amongst us?
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:50 pm
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Thanks for resurrecting Sergio. Nostalgia :D 8)

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Post subject: Re: Are there any “Martial Guitarists” amongst us?
Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:34 am
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Not a problem, man...

I myself started very young. Since I was like 6 years old I was fascinated about karate, but my old man never allowed me to study it, putting me in the Judo dojo instead.

When he was in college, the University had both disciplines, Judo and Shotokan Karate, both taught by elderly Japanese senseis. Problem was, the two masters hated each other and one would immediately leave the room if he spotted the other. The Judo teacher would often say to his students: "Sumo very serious. Only for the Japanese. Judo, also very serious, but for everyone with half a brain. Karate... for everyone, ne?"

So, old Sérgio Sr. wouldn't allow me anywhere near a karate dojo when I was young, though he himself once watched the Karate teacher train a yount black belt student for his 2nd Dan graduation and would often tell me about how the old master danced around him, dodging elegantly every punch and kick and responding with two or three, finishing the suite with a powerful kiai.

Anyway, I studied Judo for most of my young years. Quit right before I could receive the black belt.

Two decades later, through which I did some amateur boxing (which I liked a LOT, but lacked the martial discipline and philosophy of Budo that I need), I decided to go back to the dojo and get that black belt, but found out that being above 35, being thrown repeatedly and hitting the ground with my hip didn't feel as pleasant as it did when I was an 18 year-old athlete.

That led me to the best decision I could make: I went to the very same Shotokan dojo I wanted to be at since like 1984, and the very same Sensei agreed to teach me karate.

Here's a bad picture of me when I was a red belt, training jyu kumite with a black belt instructor.

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Osu!


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Post subject: Re: Are there any “Martial Guitarists” amongst us?
Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:33 am
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Sérgio wrote:
. . . picture of me when I was a red belt, training jyu kumite with a black belt instructor.

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Osu!
Very cool, Sergio. All that training could come in handy at a gig. :P
Got a question for ya. This may not make any sense, but if you were put in a situation where you had to put your martial arts skills into play do you think a combination of Judo and Karate training (both physical and mental) could compromise one or the other. I’m thinking of processing the philosophy and decisions to be made, and if you just concentrate on Karate (or other if it applied). Taking it further, would learning Karate/Judo first or second be a recommendation? Sounds crazy, huh?

I’m just wondering if it would be easier to focus without having, say for example Judo experience, and just Karate (or other martial art) or did Judo add another benefit to your Karate training?

Me? I just run now, and, unfortunately that ain’t goin’ good at my age. :lol:
Oh, well. I’d hate to have to resort to being unfair:


I wouldn’t want to run out of ammo though. :shock:
FSB

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Post subject: Re: Are there any “Martial Guitarists” amongst us?
Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:47 pm
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Thanks, FSB!

I'm glad to give you my personal, humble opinion as a reply, though I am nowhere near a master of neither art.

Judo and Karate are pretty good as a combination, because modern olympic Judo has no atemi, i.e. punches, kicks, elbow or knee strikes. It's all about take downs and ground work, though much more limited on the ground than modern Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. One will not compromise the other.

Karate is, by definition, a way of the empty hand (and foot), being an excellent punch/kick/elbow/knee/head art.

So, by training both you'll actually have a good grasp of how to deal with an opponent either striking him or taking him down... Judo does help a lot a Karate fighter, because when the combat comes to close quarters, you have to know how to roll with the opponent and throw him down.

To answer your second question, if I were to choose one of them as a first or only art, I'd most certainly choose Karate. I'd say that nowadays Judo is practiced as an olympic sport, not a martial art anymore. All you see is kids talking about scoring points, Ippon, wazaari and such, competition, medals.

Karate is still a bit more traditional and keeps its Budo a bit more. Plus, most of the street/bar/club fighters you'll have to face won't try to harm you by grabbing your coat and trying to throw you over their shoulders, they'll hit you with their hands and feet. And most of the times you dont fight a single attacker. So a martial art that teaches you how to deal with real, fast striking is probably more effective as an only discipline.

Throughout all the years I've spent training Judo I've never been prepared to take a real punch to the face. You are ot ready for that until you've been actually knocked down for real. I tasted that early on when I first tried boxing. And I learned how to take it.
BUT

The naked truth is, no martial art will make you entirely ready for a real street fight, unless you've been down that road before, or you train actual dirty fighting.

Street brawlers will gouge your eye, kick your jewels, distract you by poking your girl first and use a bottle or a knife to strike you. And pretty often they won't be alone. So even if you are popular in the local boxing gym you'll probably react as if you were in a fair fight. No street fight is fair.


The study of martial arts will indeed give you a great advantage because they teach you how the human body works and teaches you how to deal with another human body in a confrontation... It'll give you a sense of distance and a couple of attack/defense skills that might come in handy, that's about it.

In the end, it's not all about the size/skill of the dog in a fight, it's all about the size of the fight in the skilled dog.

Osu!

:wink:


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Post subject: Re: Are there any “Martial Guitarists” amongst us?
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:20 am
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Great explanation, Sergio. I enjoyed your post. Thank you.

To some extent I thought your explanation to be similar to my thinking. With my having only a Judo introduction and no hands on experience with the other martial arts including Karate, your observations, experience, and explanation brings credible answers to the questions I presented. I knew something of Brazil’s reputation to martial arts.

I know what you mean about having to deal with brawling and being street smart with and without diplomacy. I’ve found myself the new kid on the block in new territory, being a big brother when my 6 year younger brother needed support, walking rough areas to and from foreign docks, watching bikers brawl while the camera crew was moved to a safe area, and more.

Knowing when to agree, when to vacate, or when to use diplomacy can be very beneficial and wise when it works. We all know that there are those who have a grudge or ego with the world and no diplomacy will satisfy them. Competition has an ugly side as you well know.

I completely understand how any trained fighting is extremely helpful, but outside of a controlled environment it is, as you said, uncontrollable.

We used to discuss who was the better opponent. The fighter or the boxer? Generally speaking under the rules, most would say in the ring - the boxer. In the cage - the fighter. It is said that George Foreman was not a great boxer; but, if he connected you’d feel a locomotive hit your face and you wouldn’t care if he could box or not. :lol:
We could expand this discussion; but, all of those gloves pounding my body and face was a life long learning experience that taught me patience, respect, focus, and overall knowing that I could overcome adversity methodically. It also taught comradeship, and many of my opponents in and out of the ring became friends afterwards.

I truly wish that everyone could get along in this world, however, human nature prevents it. I am of the belief that a lot of misguided kids and adults are our complex problem because we no longer tolerate and we now suppress a natural form of early stage aggression like verbal or physical contact that can be monitored and regulated. That lost natural human aggression now redirects itself to unregulated and troublesome business and concerns because the natural aggression I speak of is not given the release and troubleshooting skills needed to grow up and survive in a healthy environment. Instead today’s perfect/imperfect environment is tainted and often increasingly dangerous if not confusing. I do not condone aggression, but it needs some further consideration because I believe our youth need to experience and need to learn how to face and manage life as it is, not as we fabricate it. They need open and not muted dialogue, and they need to release and not stifle their aggression in a controlled safe progressive and positive fashion. They’ll be better prepared and more productive for the hurdles ahead. The earlier aggression is observed and addressed, the earlier we can solve the problem. Looking at the issues with our troubled youth and anger management candidates, we often find their release an unwarranted surprise. Obviously, we took a wrong turn somewhere. IMHO.

When I went to school we had plenty of after school contact and other sports. Dialogue good and bad reflected life and there was always available support and punishment for excessive or unreasonable abuse. Other abuse was addressed on it’s demerits and with dialogue. Rights and wrongs became an equal expression of differences. Agreeing to disagree was common. Any fights at school saw the guilty taking the afternoon off to assemble a boxing ring. All the students assembled to watch the guilty box out their aggression. The winner got punished. Good deal, huh? :P
Maybe, we need to pass legislation that everyone is to learn how to play a guitar to the best of their ability. Fender would surely like that (as long as we don’t call it a Marshall Art). :lol:

Peace!
FSB

Much of the above just my opinion FWIW. YMMV

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Post subject: Re: Are there any “Martial Guitarists” amongst us?
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:59 am
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These conversations, of which I have had many, distill down into a few basic ideas which have already been touched on:

-the ultimate goal of martial arts training is self-protection and not to be used offensively.
[ni sente nashi]...one does not make the first move

- to know when the first move has been made

-to avoid potentially threatening scenarios for THAT in of itself could be the first move and to always have one's radar operating in any environment one happens to be in. Like knowing where the secondary exits are in a restaurant, for example, or having a sense of the people around you when window shopping. It's just something that one acquires with the training. You become AWARE!!


-not to fight, but to neutralize either by finding a way to retreat out of a confrontation which might escalate,
or to neutralize the attack at once, and to know the laws regarding self-defense and the degrees of escalation to which reasonable force can be applied.

-karate is not a kick punch discipline. It employs a host of skills involving strikes, throws, take-downs, joint locks, chokes etc, much of which is part and parcel of the ryu [traditional school] you are training in. The Okinawan systems are rich in this regard.

-when one has been in the martial arts for awhile, one obtains a sense of what 'types' are attracted to what disciplines. A behavioral psychologist would have field day writing a Ph.D. thesis on martial artists. One of my conversants likes to use the term 'fight dogs'. My take on that is an individual who would walk around a men's locker room naked with a 12 inch ruler and a pad and pencil taking measurements. These are people who choose to train a particular karate ryu or martial art because of the 'contact' content and the constant need to prove something to themselves.

-Another mirror into the world are the comments on martial arts Youtube videos, chat rooms, or discussion groups. The style, language and syntax is an unfortunate but revealing window as to what's out there. That's important for one to know for it provides an awareness of the environment within which one functions daily. One comes to understand that there are people out there who ARE 'fight dogs' who walk around with a 12 inch ruler in their back pocket instead of a comb and do not hold themselves on short leashes.


-When one look sat the people one trains with, the participants at a tournament, or those spectators who are there either to support the dojo or just take in the event, one gets an idea of the cross-section of the population who are involved in these activities. Take them out of their gi and they look the same as they would walking through any mall in the community. For example: a guy who was a regular on the train I rode home in and got out at the same station every Wednesday evening . or a guy who lives in my club community who I was first introduced to for the first time at a friend's dinner party. [Both personal experiences of mine.] The first had the outward appearance of someone you could push over with a feather {6th dan with 25 years of training]. The second looked like he could take care of himself [8th dan with 40+ years of training]. He had a cast on his wrist and the conversation kicked off with a simple question: "What happened?"

This I why my operating philosophy has always been "Be nice." "You never know who you are talking to."

Onegaishimasu

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Post subject: Re: Are there any “Martial Guitarists” amongst us?
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:35 am
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Very well said, Doc. I think so many get the wrong impression from media and elsewhere.

I had a friend and co-worker who was not only great natured and quiet, always with a smile on his face, but he was the nicest person amongst the 250 co-workers and would never speak unkindly of anyone. I saw his identification and licence showing his skill as a boxer and, basically, he was in a heap of trouble if he ever so much as laid his hands on anyone. But, as a family man retired from the sport you would never know he was who and what he was. Friends would joke and try to get him to at least put a scowl on his face. I only remember a smile.

I took up boxing for recreation and defense and never to thrash my opponent. In fact it was a strange event when I and a very good friend were matched up. I don’t recall who threw the first punch. I’d like to think it was him. :lol: But, I had other partners who saw it as a way to progress through the ranks in a multi-cultural area and with a well respected head trainer from Montreal. I got to where I could see the difference as I got older in the ring, and knew that it was time to be on the sidelines as the game changed. I have no shame in that, but I did enjoy the sport as it lasted. I think age and motivation definitely differs between pugilism and the martial arts of which we are speaking of. I also know there are two camps of direction in both. Ultimate fighting does not get my attention, but I love Sumo. :P (What a pair up that would be) :lol:
I see guys with the big ruler in their back pocket coming and going from the gym down the street. But, then there are the others of which make up the majority.

I’ll leave it at that as you and Sergio have done a fine job explaining the ins and outs of respect, kindness, and awareness as it should be. :wink:
I bow to you both.
FSB

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