You're right, that's why I used the word 'probably'. It's just a guess seeing as I don't drive and she was more than twice my age so she was driving well before I was born most likely and I've been smoking 15 years and not even that heavily in recent times.

Based only on that I would say she's caused the Earth more harm than me wouldn't you?

Those trains also throw diesel into your face when they pull up. I was a good 20 feet away from this woman and I was also outside on a coast line.

CC

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Exactly. Why should a bar owner be forced to lose custom instead of providing another option.

I vote we seize control of Guam before it tips over and make RR absolute ruler of noiseland.

As a smoker I was always very considerate of those around me. Smokers are not a bad bunch of people despite modern societies demonizing of them. Does anyone really think that healthscare tactics work to get people to quit? They dont, the first thing the sight of a pair of blackened lungs ever did to me was make me reach for the cigs. Stress levels and fear levels through the roof and what's the first thing any smoker reaches for?

Education about the nature of addiction is what is needed, not stupid scare tactics or the ever questionable replacement therapy. I'm sure those business's making nicotine patches are responsible for the current spate of almost nazi control of smokers habits by our governments. The fact that patches/gum and all that nonsense dont work as a aid should be apparent now.

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No no and no

I have been a bit busy for the past bit, so i haven't really been around.

i want to address a couple of things here.

purple, looking at my post i can see how it might appear i was targeting you, but I was really didn't mean it in that way. my statement about going outside wasn't directed at anyone in particular, and i hope it wasn't taken that way.

I agree that smokers shouldn't be spat or shat upon. I just don't think there should be smoking in the confines of a public building.

I look at this from the perspective of working in smoke filled buildings for a long time. Now with my place of work, once the ban seemed inevitable we set up places for the smokers. we got big ashtrays, and some outdoor heaters, for winter. Once people's bad habits stop affecting me, i stop having any real interest in what they do.(hard drugs, and their link to crime are a huge difference between them and cigs! )

CC i think the car/pollution angle is a bit of a nonsequiter. The old two wrongs don't make a right. those kinds of arguments really don't apply.
Maybe if I left my car running with you in the garage!!

But you should be happy to know, I live directly across from a light rail train station, and my work is only 2 blocks from another one, so I have only driven to work maybe 5 or 6 times in the last 10 years. Its cheap, easy, and given the way traffic can be between work and home it takes roughly the same amount of time as driving, on the best days, and can actually save me time on bad traffic days. Also a great side benefit is it's a great place to meet women!!I think pollution is another issue, and neither debate is served by muddying them together.

Here CC, I will also pose another question, not intended to be confrontational, but a serious question. I don't really know how your local economies have fared under the current recession/depression. Where I live we are one of the least affected areas in the western world. We didn't feel the effects until much later than most of the rest of Canada, and other parts of the world. When we did the downturn wasn't as bad as most places. Our ban came around the same time as yours, but while the rest of the world was feeling the squeeze it barely touched us. business took a small hit when the ban went in place, but rebounded. Lately we have finally been experiencing some downturn, but it has more to do with people tightening their belts than anything. So I ask: How much of the lower business do you think is from the smoking ban, and how much is the state of your economy? is some of this just coincidental in timing?

Guitslinger i hear ya. the ban here was implemented in
almost as bad a fashion as was possible. Public opinion was overwhelmingly in favor, as a couple referendums showed. Politicians here dragged their feet, under pressure from a few small groups, and tried phasing it in. they did a poor job. The originally put in place a partial ban, outright banning any building where children were allowed. then they decided to ban smoking on patios, while leaving building interiors with a couple years to phase out smoking. Smoking inside fine, smoking outside illegal?!?!?!? Then because everyone involved was unhappy with their halfassed legislation they extended the time businesses could have no smoking, if they built separate rooms for smokers with separate ventilation systems, bars were exempt. Then after several businesses built new rooms, or renovated, expecting to use them for two years, city hall backpedalled, and pushed the full ban ahead of schedule by two years, and made those new rooms useless. Even as a nonsmoker in favor of the ban in public buildings I thought the way it was handled was atrocious. It doesn't affect me at all if people smoke outside, or in their own homes, that's between them and their lungs.

that said part of why i haven't been around is i have been visiting a friend in hospital. he is in due to lung issues mostly due to his having smoked since he was 9 or 10, he's mid 40's now. sort of coincidental, as he went into hospital right after I made my first post. i hope my forum friends who smoke take a look at their own health, and reconsider their habit.

I can't and won't try enforce my views on anyone, as long as their activities don't harm me. No one should be reaching into your home, or your car, or outside to stop you from doing anything that isn't illegal (or even some stuff that is illegal, but doesn't harm anyone else.)That doesn't stop me from hoping you'll decide to quit on your own though.

_________________
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Twelvebar, sorry to hear that your friend is not feeling well, I understand the part about smoking being bad for ones health, here in the old USA public health doesn't appear to be the issue, you see politics is the issue and always has been, the propaganda about smoking was just to soften the public up for the inevitable, when I started smoking a pack of cig's cost 25 cents 2 dollars for a carton, now in Chi some places are charging 10 dollars for a pack and almost 1 hundred dollars for a carton with the average being 8 dollars and change for a pack, every penny over 25 cents is taxes, our politicians really couldn't care less about what is in their constituents lungs but they obviously care way too much about what is in their constituents wallets, the worst gangsters that ever lived are more like Mother Theresa compared to the miscreant's posing as politicians in this day and age, Twelvebar I will keep trying to quit but I can't help thinking that you are a caring good hearted Bro and that has never been a match for the political shenanigans that pass for legislation in my beloved country.

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you can save the world with your guitar one love song at a time it's just better, more fun, easier with a fender solid body electric guitar or electric bass guitar.

politicians are probably pretty much the same everywhere. i doubt they care too much about my health either. i do think they care about creating some distance and at least the appearance of being anti-tobacco when they saw how the class action lawsuits were going. I don't fail to see the irony(hypocrisy,) of governments running antismoking campaigns and legislation while at the same time raking in massive amounts of tax revenue. No coincidence that they didn't look at any of these initiatives until smoking rates had fallen dramatically, and the threat of being held liable in court made potential costs outstrip the profit from taxes.

I also acknowledge that my stance on the non smoking in public buildings is self motivated too. it's much better for me that it's no longer allowed, so i am for it.

_________________
I'm not an expert, but I play one on the internet.

Thank you, Twelvebar; I wasn't taking your comment personally, I was merely restating my previous stance.
The way it was handled at your palce of work seems to me pretty much the best way it can be done given the current given legal framework.
This is what I'm supporting, just accomodate everybody.
What infuriates me is that the smoking ban was forced upon us by politicians, was implemented poorly, to say the least (any smoking places in american airports?), and it's treated in a most hypocritical manner.
All this while continually raising taxes on tobacco and related products (my habit is bad, but my money is good?).
I used previously the hard drugs parallel just as a logical stretch to make a point, the more expensive the product gets, the more interesting it becomes for criminal activities (cigarettes contraband anyone?).
If I quit smoking , I want to do it for my own reasons, not being forced to.
If the "smoking is bad for your health" concern is genuine, then enforce education, not penalties first. And how about a bit more "alcohol and drugs are bad" education?

I'm sorry to hear about your friend, hope he recovers quickly and fully.

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La vie est belle, le monde est pourri, make the most of it!

Obama smokes the occasional cigarette. I'm sure he steps outside to do it.

I wonder if Clinton smoked in the White House or did he just keep cigars for "other" purposes?

_________________
You're only as strong as
the drinks you pour,
the tables you dance on,
and the friends you roll with.

First off, I'm an occasional smoker so I should probably say that up front. But I can hang out in either type of establishment, smoking or non with no issues.

However, all these smoking bans? They are B.S. for one main reason, it should be the choice of the business/bar owner. In the same way you have a choice whether you would allow smoking in your home or car, the owner should make the rules for his own place.

But the criminal for now in the political ring was smoking, so the politicians jumped on it and the bans are going in.

Which freedom will be next? How about a mandatory limit on how many hamburgers you can eat in a month so the nation's cholesterol and waistlines stay under control?

First off, I'm an occasional smoker so I should probably say that up front. But I can hang out in either type of establishment, smoking or non with no issues.

However, all these smoking bans? They are B.S. for one main reason, it should be the choice of the business/bar owner. In the same way you have a choice whether you would allow smoking in your home or car, the owner should make the rules for his own place.

But the criminal for now in the political ring was smoking, so the politicians jumped on it and the bans are going in.

Which freedom will be next? How about a mandatory limit on how many hamburgers you can eat in a month so the nation's cholesterol and waistlines stay under control?

Hey Twelvebar, it's the smoking. The smoking ban in Northern Ireland has been going a while and going before the recession. Its no coincidence, people have been staying at home for years now throughout winters so they can smoke. I can include myself and most of my friends as an example of those people.

Many bars have spent a hell of a lot of money on roof decks and extensions to have them as smoking areas and no-one is using them because outside heaters don't really do much in Northern Ireland's winters..

Like I said, people are going for the gigs and then straight back home. The recession couldn't have helped in any way but lets be fair, a recession is not stopping the Irish from drinking, ever. It's more to do with the smoking and having to be outside in a feezing Irish winter.

When it comes to the car thing, my point was simple, that woman had thrown a lot more craap into the air in her lifetime than I had so I wasn't stopping smoking.

CC

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hehe fair enough.

It's hard to imagine the cultural differences halfway across the planet. i would have thought Ireland would be one of the places where the ban wouldn't matter. I would never guess that not being able to smoke indoors would stop the Irish from going out to drink.

It's a bit weird here. There are a few places I thought might get hurt by the ban. your traditional smoky dive. yet the ones I frequent seem to be doing just as well. Some of the places i thought wouldn't be affected seem a bit quieter. maybe the smoking was keeping some people from certain places. I wonder how the smoking demographics compare between our locations. if you have a higher rate of smokers, then it would stand to reason businesses would feel a bigger bite.

Freezing Irish winter? People here still come out in -40, and still huddle outside to smoke. maybe having a long and cold winter makes us take it more in stride. or Irish smokers are more stubborn, seems highly likely!

But I agree with your point, that governments need to take the impact of these changes into mind. if the ban is hurting an entire industry, in your area then it needs to be looked at. The political climate in the UK seems to be anti pub from what I hear anyway. Anti smoking legislation will only work in areas where the majority actually want it.

i saw a story where a british girl is barred from all pubs? is that a true piece, or a joke?

_________________
I'm not an expert, but I play one on the internet.

Everyone does go out to drink still and bars are still packed but like I said only for the couple of hours a night a band or DJ might be on. It used to be places were bunged all day for the football etc but now its awful and such a pity. But as I said I'm one of the guilty who choose house parties. Belfast is a very student based city and many of the places I frequent with my band are very close to student accommodation areas, walking distance, Belfast isn't that big. These places are surviving thanks to the students being out every night during the week but local bars in non-student areas are empty most of the day and many owners have either went broke attempting to adhere to the ban and build outdoor areas up or they have went out of business because it simply isn't possible.

One of the main places for bands and a place I go too much is Lavery's on Bradbury place. They have 5 bars between 3 floors. One of them being outside on the 3rd floor in their new smoking open bar deck thing they built. Its all very nice and it will be nice in the summer, the winter was awful. Why smoke there if your house is only a short walk or taxi ride away? Would you rather have fire at your feet or rain in your face?

Also, the ban has been going on for years here but many major pubs and clubs are only just getting their smoking area development finished. So it will be interesting to see if that changes anything. With the recession people have twice the reason to drink at home now.

Seeing as these outdoor areas have taken years to be finished pubs and clubs have therefore been losing a lot of custom in the time taken to do this.

CC

_________________
Fender Stratocaster (parts build)
Fender Telecaster 72 Custom RI
Fender Telecoustic Deluxe
Gretsch Electromatic Pro-Jet
Gibson Les Paul Standard Plus
Gibson ES-135
Zenith Type-17
Marshall 70's JMP Superbass 100w
Blackstar HT-5