Our singer in the band fancies himself a songwriter. So much so that he wrote 11 songs, and wanted to make a cd to sell at our gigs. He gave me a copy of just him and his guitar , singing these songs. They all sounded the same, irregular lyric composition, wierd timing and changes, and not real commercial material. Well I made chord charts for everyone in the band, arranged the songs so there would be a couple of rockers, a ballad or two, you know..different types of music styles. We spent about 6 months in a studio recording these songs and now the cd is done and ready to sell. Problem is that I'm kinda embarrased to be involved in the cd. It's mediocre at best. I've got a lot of studio time under my belt and have been involved in some very succesfull demos for other bands and singers. But the guy who wrote these songs didn't want to hear any of my suggestions. Worst thing is that we are going to start incorporating these songs into our set list. A lot of my friends and fellow players have told me "what the hell is this" more than once when they hear it. He ordered 700 copies....it's going to be a long summer.

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Life is like a sh*t sandwich. The more bread you have, the less sh*t you have to eat.

I won't play on anything I don't have any faith in or doesn't inspire me. I just bow out. How did the other band members feel? You should be honest with your singer.

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Be true to youself. If you're not happy....walk. JMHO-N

Well, to me there are a few different ways to look at this. As a bit of a song writer myself, I can empathize with the singer here. You write a tune, you have an idea of how you want it to sound in your head and then someone comes along and says, "no, no...we're not doing it that way". Personally it p***es me off every time. -I- wrote it, we'll do it the way -I- want -my- song done. Now personally I've never had too many problems with the band or even our audience in regards to material that I've written...everyone on that front seems to like it. However I have spoken with other "studio guys" who get all hell bend on things like "hooks" and "commercial" and want to make my music something other than what it is....one of the BIG reasons I record my own material. For me, my music is no different than any other art that I create...if I'm doing photography I do not let other's tell me how to take (or edit) my images or what to take pictures of...I may consider "suggestions" but ultimately it's up to me. Same thing with painting...if I should choose to paint something "Picasso'esque", that's -my- choice as the artist.

Now to that I would add that most times I've provided original material in this way to a band, it's also been -my- band (or at the very least, mine and my wife's band). While as the "boss" I will certainly listen to everyone's ideas and suggestions and may even include original material from other band members, ultimately -I- make the decisions...in my mind, it's a "business" and not a democracy (and honestly it's not always that strict or stringent at all but sometimes it does come down to that). Either way though, again I've never really heard many complaints at all about the material I or my wife have written...people seem to like it. Yea, I've written a stinker or two...anyone who writes has...in that regard I think a person does need to develop a certain degree of "professional detachment" from their work. In this regards though we usually let the audience decide...if we put a tune out there...original or cover...and the crowd doesn't respond, we just don't do that tune. Simple as that really.

On the other hand if I'm working as just the guitar player in a given band, then I typically will keep my original material to myself...unless I feel it fits the band's style and everyone agrees on it. For example the band I'm in now is basically a classic rock cover band but we also do a lot of oldies and quite a bit of blues. I have one or two tunes that would actually go pretty well with what we're doing...and they are tunes that have gone over well with audiences in the past...so as we look for more material as the band progresses I may say "hey...I got a couple of originals that I think might work". I'll let the band listen to them and decide if they are tunes that we'd like to do as a group and as such I would expect everyone to perhaps put their own spin on things...nothing wrong with that and that's what we usually do with "covers" anyways. In this case the band I'm with now (which still remains nameless) is essentially doing a "cover" of a tune that I've written and I will be playing the tune as the guitarist.

When you're talking about original material, you generally have to consider the "intent" of the material. Yea...some folks are happy just writing tunes, will put said tunes out on the "market" and sell their work...hopefully to someone who can turn it in to a "hit". Other folks will write a tune for "the band" realizing that the band itself is a "team" and in such a case should expect a team contribution. For others still, it's -much- more personal...if I created said tune, then usually I know what -I- want it to sound like. Just because someone else may have more experience or may be "commercially successful" doesn't change any of that...in fact it's quite irrelevant because ultimately it's still -my- material...-I- created it.

I would also add that this is why a lot of "artists" will also work in the studio very much as their own producer as well. A good producer should be able to work with an artist to help make the most of the music however a great many people are NOT good producers and will have their own vision of what the music may (or may not) be with their own goals in mind...and those visions and goals may not be what the "content creator" had in mind. Again in my own case as a song writer and as a musician, if I were to work in a "real" studio with a "real" producer and said person came in and said "well...we're going to change this and this and we're going to rearrange these tunes so there's a couple of "rockers" and we're going to do these tunes as "ballads" and so forth and so forth...", very simply I wouldn't allow it. Again I don't really care how experienced or successful said producer is, if they're not going to work with me to create the vision of the music that I intended, then I'd simply rather do it myself rather than have my work mutated in to something I don't like. To me the producer works for the artist/band and NOT the other way around. The role of a producer is to help guide the creativity, -not- impose their own ideas.

Essentially when we're talking about song writing, we're talking about "creative content" and at the risk of being blunt, -ownership-...copyright. Very simply the person who originally wrote the material -owns it-. If you have purchased the rights to use said material from the owner or have otherwise negotiated an agreement in regards to who/how the material is to be performed, recorded, etc., than you have the right to change it as you feel within the rights and provisions of that ownership or the negotiated contract. If you have NOT purchased the material or came to said agreement, it still belongs to the person who created it and it is theirs to do with as they please. In other words, if I write a tune and sell it to "Big Joe's Publishing" and they turn around and sell it to Yabba-Wabba the rapper, unless I have made some sort of previsions in that sale, then I have relinquished my rights to ownership...if Yabba-Wabba wants to rap to it, it doesn't really matter that I utterly -hate- and totally despise rap because I sold my rights. Equally, while you may feel that the singer's tunes "all sounded the same, irregular lyric composition, weird timing and changes, and not real commercial material", the singer still wrote them...those are -his- tunes.

So with all of that, what this really comes down to is "band politics" so I think you need to ask yourself some straight forward questions... First off, is this the singer's band? Are you just the guitar player? If that should be the case then it's just like any other job...if you're not happy with the job or you don't like you're supervisors, the product, the service, whatever and you can't reach an amiable agreement and/or you simply think you can do it better yourself, then perhaps it's time to seek other "employment". -If- this is your band then simply tell the singer you're not doing the material...at least not "as is"...and allow him (her) to choose if they wish to continue working for you or not. -If- this band is a "democracy", then it's not just up to you...talk it over with the other band members and "vote" whether to do the tunes or not, as is or not, then let the singer know that decision in a polite and professional way so that he/she can decide if they wish to allow their work to be done in a manor other than they intended or to simply find some other way to do it....and as with any other job, should the employee decide they don't want to do their job, it's time to replace them.

These are just my own opinions as always but hopefully that gives you a few things to consider.

Peace,
Jim

The "I wrote it and you'll play my way" would make me take the highway. Every band I've been in since since the 60's would welcome any input from the other bandmates. That's how all the "hits" from way back were done. Check out a film called "The Wrecking Crew" and you'll see what I mean. The song is written, then other musicians help fill in the gaps an d make improvements. Why be so narrow minded. Two bands I play with now are asking me to help and to feel free to add any input I may have. These guys are truly talented musicians and songwriters. I feel deeply honored to be a part of their process. The way I look at it, if you're in a band,and you're not willing to do that, quit the band and be a singer songwriter solo act.

Gee I hope you've already expressed these concerns in person to all of your band-mates.. throwing someone under the bus on the internet will come back to haunt you... This is up for everyone to read...

That's a good point.

If you knew it was bad from the start, why did you stick around? I mean just how much improvement did you think you would get after mixing and producing? You're just going to have to be honest, and excuse yourself from the project...This person will figure out after they end up with a bunch of CDs they cannot get rid of...

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RAMA LAMA FA FA FA

Would I be correct in assuming that your band is a cover band and your singer wrote originals?

I guess my question would be, why would you go record 11 songs for 6 months that you didn't like to begin with?? It sounds like a communication problem to me.

How does the rest of the band feel about it? Something like this should have been a collective band input process if your band name is being stamped on it. If the singer just wanted everything his way, then you have to stand your ground if it doesn't sit well with you. As well as the other members. The way you're describing this, it's a band communication problem more than anything.

Anytime anyone in our band acts like they just want everything done their way in a song, or just wants the spotlight above everyone else, we have a name for them. That name is "GWEN". When you act like that, you are being a Gwen Stefani.. and we don't hold back on calling each other Gwen. It's a good way for us to keep a good balance in the band. For example, if all of the sudden I do a guitar solo that goes over the top for a song, believe me, I'll hear it. "Hey Gwen, that's a little much don't you think? Can you tone it down a little?". Enough said, I'll rethink what I'm doing.

You'd be surprised how far that word can go.. Hahaha.

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Well you did commit to the band. I for one cant understand why eleven songs took six months to record, did he write them in the studio with you all doing bit parts?

Myself I'd just tell him straight. I dont like the recorded stuff, dont want my name on it. I've been good enough to record it and not tell you my feelings and so dampen our relationship whilst it was being recorded. I think that you need to find another guitarist to play these songs. I'll stick around until you do, when he gets here I'll help him through the parts I played.

Way I see it, thats your best out.

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No no and no

I was kind of wondering that myself. We just finished recording 12-songs with 6 members (and a hired sax and trumpet player), everything doubled, and when all was said and done, it took us 85-hours. That equates to about 11-8 hr days.. We did have recording days spread out though, it wasn't something where we went in every day in a row, a couple of the days were only 4-hour sessions, so it took a little over 1-month.

But in six months, we could have really refined every minute detail. I could only see it taking that long if you were only able to go in a few days a month, or if the band didn't have rehearsals for the songs and just wrote their parts as it went along. Even then, I can't see it taking 6-months.

I'm not trying to put anyone down, I don't know the situation at all, but I was curious about that myself.

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I am also wondering how it can go on for 6 months with no indication that it might sound crappy...Seriously, I don't think all 11 songs got recorded, produced, and mixed all at the same time...you'd think at least a couple would get done first and that you would give them a listen. At that point, you would have had the option to go back and re-do the songs if they could be salvaged, or excuse yourself from the project...

Also, when you say you arranged the songs...do you mean you just picked what should be recorded and helped organize stuff to help others learn the material? Or the song order on the CD?

Or do you mean you ARRANGED THE SONGS as far as how they went from just a singer and a guitar to becoming a song with a full band? If you mean arranging in this manner, as far as the musical composition of a song, then the songwriter is not the only one to blame, because you are just as responsible for things turning out the way they did as much as the songwriter. Also, if this is what you meant by "arranged" was the songwriter in on this process? And how did you suggest the changes....If you said something to the effect of,"I like what you've done so far, but have you considered trying this?", then they need to be a bit more open to criticism...But if you said something like,"This sucks, is crap, and should be like this instead.", then I can see someone not being as receptive to criticism...

As someone stated in a previous message, its all about communication and working together...if this does not occur, you may not have a band for long, or just look at it as someones solo project, and you're just there to do what they want...as long as your name isn't a part of the band, you can always say you were just filling in/doing a favor/making a payday/etc...

I mean to me it sounds similar to a crappy major motion picture, where you just wonder how people did not know it was going to be crap until it came out...

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RAMA LAMA FA FA FA

One thing I do think you should consider before you react to any advice given is, could this all be in your head?

Of all the recordings I'm on, I'm 100% happy with maybe 5% of em. The first time I recorded anything seriously I was horrified and didnt want anyone to hear it.

When the CD's land it's even worse.

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No no and no

That's funny...my wife is kind of like that too. She always seems to hate most of the stuff she records. In her case, she never seems to like the sound of her own voice.

I think a lot of musicians tend to "suffer" from this...you hear every last minute flaw in your performance. Often times it's stuff that no one else will -ever- hear...but you know it's there. I do have one tune that still haunts me a little...in this case it wasn't a performance thing as much as in the lead I can hear the my high E string was a tich out...the intonation was off and I hadn't adjusted it before recording. Again though, no one else really notices at all but -I- hear it every time. That said, I really try not to let it bug me...I still very much enjoy listening to that tune. I don't know if it's because I "wear so many hats" in my own little studio or what but over the years I guess I've learned to separate myself from the performance a bit. Being able to do my own recording of course is a huge advantage...I can sit there all night re-dubbing my tracks until I get it just right but there comes a point when I have to step away as the guitarist (or drummer or bass player, whatever) and start being the "engineer". Once I've switched gears, I'm not really looking for technical flaws in my performance unless it's something that really affects the over-all track/tune (like a + spike on the meters or gain staging that caused some nasty distortion or something). I still hear those flaws...you can't help but hear them...but there just comes a time when you have to "move on".

I also gotta say...and I dunno...maybe this is an ego thing but, I'm typically rather proud of most of the work I've done recording...even if a couple of the tunes really are "turds", LOL!!! Yea...there's a couple that I go back and listen to now where it's like "geesshhh...how did I write, let alone record such a piece of crap?" but most of the tunes that I and/or my wife have done, I actually enjoy listening to. On some level I'm sure it's little more than "hey...-I- made that!" but I really do think most of the material my wife and I have done over the years are actually pretty good tunes. The performances may not be the best...certainly not compared with how I play now ten years later...and the quality of the recordings certainly varies as I was really learning as I went but the tunes themselves I mostly happy with. It sounds like "music" and it's music that I enjoy listening too.

Anyways, rambling now... To keep this relivant to the original post, I have to second Nick's comments there about "Are you sure it's not just you?". So much of this thing we call music is, as I so often say, very highly subjective...everyone has different tastes.


Jim

Follow your little voice in your head. Of course some people cannot play and sing at the same time. He/she may need the band's input for these songs. If he/she will take advice, walk now.

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RK

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