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Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:34 am
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Hi Jay: interesting post, good stuff. You understand I'm discussing, not arguing about it with you? So a couple of quick points:
BigJay wrote:
3) A Radio Frequency Identification Tag (RFID) system (standard EPC-Gen2) platform likely will likely be frowned upon as expensive and impractical. As Ive mentioned, the tags must be energized and read by a specified reader device. Who gets the reader? Who pays for it? The Dealer community seems logical. Maybe Fender buys the readers for each Dealer? This creates a security vulnerablillty as any Dealer employee could scan new CS guitars for the codes to apply to their own side business of fraudulent CS guitars. RFID likely wont happen.

But it already exists. I mistakenly called it Tagg in a post above: of course it is actually the Snagg instrument chipping system:

http://www.snagg.com/

If I recall an earlier discussion it was reckoned that the wholesale price to a big manufacturer might be $10-15 per instrument. At which point surprise was expressed by several that the Custom Shop don't already offer it. I don't know if Mike Eldred has been asked about that...?

BigJay wrote:
4) On obtaining legit serial numbers, you have a point. However, obtaining the legit # from both the neckpocket and heel is not so easy considering it requires breaking down the guitar. Further, the neckpocket and heel #s are forever linked with the serial number of the guitar, which means all three numbers must match together or it could be a fake. This is a constraint, but not infalible, barrier to frauds. However, we could add another data point to the database...the number of callers per ID# set. If you called Customer Service and found all 3 ID#s correct and correctly associated you might assume its legit. But what if Fender told you that these numbers are associated with 25 different potential transactions over the last year? An unusually high number of inquiries spanning some period of time might be a huge red flag?

Well, let me think about #4 a bit.


But the three numbers would be easy to get and put together. If I was looking at such a guitar on Ebay, say, I'd obviously ask the seller for the three numbers so's I could ring Fender and check authenticity. That's the whole point of the scheme, right?

Soon as the seller gives me the numbers, bingo, my mission as a (fictional) counterfeiter is accomplished. A row of quick "ask the seller a question" enquiries on Ebay nets me all the pairs or trios of legit serial numbers I need for my wicked work.

This seems a fundamental problem to me - no?

Cheers - C

PS Jay, I am bewildered we haven't seen you on the "What is your favorite meal" thread. I happen to know you have excellent stuff to contribute there... :)


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Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:08 am
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[quote="BigJay"][quote="Ceri"][quote="BigJay)
You got it right with a workable plan given current techology,when we concluded this the first time 'round. Seems to me that noow the ball sits w/the company if, at all, they give a damn.

Doc.

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Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:27 am
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The simple fact is that no system is infallible. Luckily we have an information resource the likes of which has never been seen before, in the internet.

I'll stick with education being the only answer. A guitar's serial no' is nothing more than a dating tool and in no real way a means of authenticating an instrument. Neither is a COA, its nothing more than a pretty piece of paper. Any chip system would soon go the same way, just as people in the know on this thread have said to me. With security your always playing catchup, or should that be catchip?

Ed you kay shun is the only answer. If you cant research a instruments validity when you have 6million people's combined knowledge at your fingertips, you deserve everything you get.

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Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:30 am
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BigJay NAILED it!

This is a situation where a little technology applied the right way would not only protect Fender sellers and buyers, but it would increase the value of Fender products on both sides of the economic cycle.

I can hear brad and the IT staff now... :twisted: :? :? [/quote]

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Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:48 am
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BigJay wrote:
That Snagg deal is a type of RFID called "Active"....needs a battery to energize the chip. As opposed to "passive" where the chip is energized by passing it within the proximity of a magnetic field with proper decoding software. Notice that Snagg requires you permanently alter your guitar, drilling holes and inserting the chip w/battery, plus epoxy. Fender might do this, but again, who has the reader devices? Trust me when I tell you that few Law Enforcement agencies actually possess a reader device for this purpose. Further, these business models typically rely on the sale of the reader device for revenue. I suspect you will find very few guitar dealers that have purchased one of the Tagger reader devices as they probably MSRP for $7500-$10,000. Obviously, without access to the Tagger reader, there's no point in installing the chip. To this I question how this might work via Ebay? The sale must be local, clearly. In my professional opinion, this Snagger company is very likely to fail.


Er, just on that: no, that Snagg system is passive. No batteries required. And the chip is absolutely tiny, the size of a grain of rice. Just like the things most of us have installed in the scruff of our cats' and dogs' necks these days.

I have no idea if the company is ultimately going to fail or not. But it has been around a while now and still seems to be going strong, far as the eye can tell. This ain't new technology anymore, after all.

Anyhow.

I've thought carefully about your latest additions to the serial number plan. Again, interesting. It's getting more and more like credit cards, isn't it?

Where I live we've had chip+PIN credit cards for many years now and they cut down on (not prevent) certain types of fraud. Trouble is, other kinds of fraud that just circumvent the measures simply take over, and that is what has happened.

I think right near the end of your post you were feeling your way towards what I think is a better (not infallible) system. Dunno about other countries but in mine we have a system called Driver Vehicle Licensing, which links a given car to an individual owner. When we sell a car we inform DVLC (the C is Centre) to update the database.

Isn't something like that what we really need here?

The purchaser of a new guitar (and it doesn't only have to be a Custom Shop) registers their purchase, as many indeed already do. When they sell it the seller and the next owner go to the database and update the information. So most legit guitars are linked to current owners.

An incentive to a buyer to do his little bit of work at the online database, because it'll make it easier for him when the time comes to sell the instrument. And it would help (not solve) not only with fake guitars but stolen ones too.

Some IT minded person needs to work out the mechanisms for making that user-administered online. Problematic but not impossible - I think. And by doing away with Customer Services input it becomes very cheap indeed, after initial set-up.

That's how it works in some other businesses, anyhow...

Any good?

Cheers - C


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Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:28 pm
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BigJay wrote:
Actually, Ceri....I've figured out a spectacular solution to all our guitar registration and anti-fraud interests.

We need biometrically enabled guitars!!!! :roll: :P :lol:

One little swipe of your finger along the swipe sensor, and the guitar works. However, it only works for your fingerprint.

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :P :wink:


HA!

Well now, from the oposite end of that particular issue: I'm strictly an amateur builder and have never sold a guitar I've made or even a part. But if any of my pieces ever do end up in anyone else's hands at least they will be able to prove a genuine Ceri from a fake. Mine all have a left thumb print in the lacquer in the control cavity. (Truly.)

Howzat for biometric ID?

:D - C


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Post subject: Re: Does Anyone Not Have a Problem With This
Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:03 pm
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djphaneuf wrote:
I see no other reason for selling the custom shop certificate and neckplate than to help someone commit fraud. Maybe I am being too myopic on this but would be interested if someone has a different take.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0422590298

Regards,

DP


Like you, I have little doubt as to what that would be used for. With that said, I don't see that there's much that could be done about it. I'd prefer that the legislature wouldn't involve itself, as I'm sure the cure would be far worse than the disease. I fear the baboons that make the laws FAR more than I fear getting ripped on a phony guitar scam.

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