Hi guys: I lost interest in the COA topic ages ago so I'm not going back to that one. Not worth anyone's sore feelings.

However, I am interested in the problems of creating a system to adequately authenticate guitars from here on in. I'm taken with the suggested method, but I'd (politely) like to suggest a couple of problems.

One is cost. That's been breezily swept aside in earlier posts, but in addition to the database (which I agree would likely only be a modification of facilities Fender already has) there is the additional cost of answering the phone to all the thousands of kids who will suddenly be ringing up wanting to verify a guitar. Probably several phone calls for each completed sale - and there's A LOT of sales going on out there.

How many phone calls do you think this proposed system would generate per month or year? Fender has around 700+ employees I seem to remember (sorry, I can't recall where I got that number from). That's a fair extra staffing burden for what by most standards in the wider world is not really a very big company. And put that in relation to the unit cost of each guitar sold. Hmmm...

I don't think the Board will go with it unless you can make it cheaper. Surely there's some way to make the whole thing automated online, so the user supplies the manpower? More thinking to be done on that.

The other point is that even if you could conclusively advise a potential buyer that two or three different serial numbers all belong together, all a fraudster has to do is make sure his fake-o-caster carries the three numbers of a real guitar, not randomly generated numbers.

Every time a potential buyer asks for the numbers to be revealed to him by a seller in order to verify a purchase numbers that belong together are made available. The work of minutes for someone trawling guitars on Ebay to get a list of real numbers that belong together and then get faking.

I don't think this is going to work.

To be fair, I don't think there is any better method out there that will work either. After all, people are busy faking passports valued at hundreds (black market), credit cards that might net thousands and Vermeer paintings valued at tens of millions, and getting away with it despite the most expensive and rigorous verification systems in each case.

The unit cost of most guitars just don't add up to a system anything like as secure as these other highly fallible examples.

I'm afraid fake Strats are almost certainly here to stay...

But I'd be delighted for you to show me I'm wrong. Really.

Cheers - C

EDIT: for dumb spooling mistocks...

One of the biggest things I learned from the Fender Forum is that'll I'll probably never buy a guitar off ebay...

But its Great to have guys like ya'll who would help a guy out like me if I ever need help determing the real from the fake.

Sincerely, Jim #2

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Kid: "Hey Smokey! Where did you get your name?"
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(former user jimbo612)

Quite honestly, I suspect this place is the most important security resource, far as safe purchasing is concerned. Not infallible, but better than most other options.

Cool, ain't it?

Cheers, Jim - C

Very Cool These forums definitely rival Facebook on my most visited.
I've learned a lot about guitar too from all of ya'll too.

I feel like I can't really give valuable input to this topic, since I feel like I still feel a noob to Fender but hopefully one day...

But I'm getting off topic now...

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Kid: "Hey Smokey! Where did you get your name?"
Smokey the Bear: "Well..."
(former user jimbo612)

Sorry to drag you all through this again....guess that is the problem with new blood on the forum. Next time just point me to the old thread.

Interesting to see other people's takes on this. My opinion hasn't changed but happy to hear from others and always try to keep an open mind. This forum is great because people are generally positive and do not jump on your back for a stupid question. Hey, you even turned this old question into an interesting thread.

Time to go practice some more......I'm not worthy.

Ok...just playing devil's advocate a little more here...

Let's say that Fender (or anyone really) were to implement such a change. Hell, with the computer tech out there today, let's say that Fender were to start embedding little "chips" in to the wood that could be scanned to verify the authenticity of an instrument (my like people get ID chips implanted in their dog's ear). This way you can run the neck and/or body past the scanner and get a code that read's "authentic Fender"...no code, not Fender. Do you really, honestly believe that's going to prevent people from getting burned? Here's the problem...

Those bar codes on the neck heal and in the neck pocket are a great example...most people who get burned, never stop to ask or look at these things...that's how they get burned in the first place! Hell, a lot of people don't really even look at the headstock logos...how many posts have we seen here where someone has posted something that is clearly "crap" to most of us but they just didn't see it? We're not even talking about "good" fakes here...I've seen some posts cross the forums that were -really- bad. Even if Fender had that database you suggest, do you really think most people like this are going to check -before- they buy that instrument they're drooling over?

At the risk of offending Straycat there, he hit it right on the nose...

"to be honest I was duped once on a guitar that no one else but me and the seller would know about. After the transaction I just had the feeling something was not right and did so much research till I found what I was looking for

After the transaction. That's been my gripe of the week about all of this. People see, they want, they buy...and then they come here and post topics that say "Did I get burned?". The point is that you can have "the best" security and anti-fraud devices in the world -but- if people don't check in to what they're buying first...before they buy...it doesn't matter -at all-. It's not the folks who -know- what to look for that usually get burned...it's the folks who don't look at all. It's the folks that just want to "snatch that bargain before it get's away" or simply don't have the experience and don't know what to look for...and the best anti-fraud devices will never change that.

Again, just something to consider.

Jim

Jim,

I agree with you and am one of those most likely to get burned. I do a bit of research but know that I could still get burned on what looks like a good deal. If it is a good deal you need to act quickly, so there is the pressure to act before you know what you are doing. I know there is risk so limit my potential losses to what I can handle. So far I have done well (at least I am happy with what I bought).

I can't bring myself to go to GC and pay $3000 for a guitar that sells everyday on Ebay for $2000. So, I rely on help from people here (first time I tried to get feedback on an ebay listing someone accused me of being the seller) and my guitar teacher who is a knowledgeable dude. Also take a good look at past sales and feedback of person selling on Ebay. If possible, try to find something close enough to home that I can lay my hands on it. A certificate that matches the neckplate along with original case and some case candy etc. gives me an even better feeling about the deal. An original receipt is best of all. If anything is suspicious, I walk away and accept the fact that my ignorance may have cost me a deal. I am a registered Libertarian and free market capitalist but sure hate to see the folks who come in and ruin a good thing (CL, ebay, etc.) by using it to rip off people. Spend time on this forum mostly to be educated by the folks here.

Hi Jay: that is a very interesting post, and very useful to see the numbers discussed that way. It hadn't occurred to me we were just talking about CS guitars, but that's fair enough and certainly makes things more do-able as a percentage of unit cost.

I have no idea how many guitars the Custom Shop turns out, though the oft-quoted statistic is that in their own right they are the sixth biggest maker in the world. I think that may place their sales well above 25,000, but I very much stand to be corrected on that. Has anyone asked Mike Eldred what that number is in reality?

Also, on Customer Services staff numbers. I have a sensation that something Rob Schwartz said sometime indicates it is possibly far less than 10 people manning the phones. But again, I don't know.

'Part from that, you set out some persuasive numbers and I'm intrigued.

Couple of things though. Especially if we're just talking CS wouldn't the scan-able chip system that already exists be a more secure way of embedding the serial numbers (as Jim/lomitus is suggesting)? A bit harder for most of us to fake than a decal, anyhow.

In fact, I wonder that the CS don't already offer the Tagg chip system (or do they?). Again, anyone asked Mike Eldred about that?

'Nother thing. Even if the economics of running the system with Customer Service operatives are viable after all, wouldn't it still be better from everyone's point of view to make aspects of the database user accessible? That way there is no staffing issue at all. Though of course, a mechanism to work that effectively would be required, and that's beyond my non-IT brain...

Last thing. None of this addresses my other stumbling block: the fact that even if you can verify that the serial number(s) on a guitar are real ones that doesn't mean that this is the original guitar that came with that number. Someone can just find out legit serial numbers and attach them to fakes. When we run the SN past Fender they say: "yep, that number is a real one". But where does that get us?

I've seen enough real serial numbers flashed about just on this Forum. If I were into faking guitars I'd be making a collection of those numbers and use them on my counterfeits. When someone ran them past the Guitar Dater Project or any other database (including Fender's) it would show up as a legit number - but would prove nothing.

Final passing observation: I'd have agreed with what you say about most people who buy a CS guitar not wanting to sell it. Except that I seem to see so surprisingly many CS Fenders for sale on Ebay, in magazine small ads and elsewhere. And another thing that surprises me is how few of these owners seem to have bothered to keep the original sale receipt and other such documentation. That stuff ultimately doesn't verify a guitar either - but it all helps...

Another very long post. Sorry...

Cheers - C

Well...and this too is just my own personal opinion but I really think that falls under the idea of balancing one's "desire to get a bargain" with a bit of common sense.

That really seems to be one of the problems with all of this...that fear that the bargain "might get away". Now please don't get me wrong here...I'm a bargain hunter myself. I really don't like paying full price for stuff either. However I don't allow myself to get so wrapped up in that bargain hunt that my common sense flies out the window (at least not usually)...I'd much rather walk away from something I'm not sure about rather than get screwed by my own greed. When I got my Lab L5, I picked it up at a guitar show for $45. In this case I -knew- it needed new speakers and it was probably going to need some electronics work. I knew I could get the speakers I wanted for about $70 and I knew my tech would only charge me around $50 for the work so for a total of $165, I got myself a wonderful old classic 2x12 solid state. A -good- bargain (as they usually go for $300 to $400 depending on condition) because I -knew- what I was getting myself in to and I -knew- what to expect.

"If it is a good deal you need to act quickly"

Ya see...this is exactly where people get burned. I'm not saying you specifically but a lot of people will simply adopt a "have to have it" attitude...it seems like such a really great deal and "I have to get it before someone else does" (which in my book again falls under "greed"). The problem is they don't stop to ask -why- it's such a good deal. In the case of a guitar on Ebay for example, -why- is the seller letting it go so cheap? -Why- is no one else bidding on it or -why- didn't anyone else snag it with the "Buy it now" option? This is where a person either really needs to -know- what they're doing or needs to start asking questions. And I'm sorry but in the case of Craigslist, you (usually) get to see and play that guitar in person -before- you hand the person the money for it. What's more is there is usually still a window of opportunity there too...if you see something on Craigslist that you're interested in, chances are you're still not going to get out there till the next day, so you can ask the seller for some pictures and a serial number and check them out before you even meet the seller in person. There's really no reason for a person to get burned there at all if they know what to look for and do their homework -first-!

Now let's look at this with Ebay...most of the time you usually have at least a day or two before that auction ends. Yea...sometimes you may walk in (metaphorically speaking) in the last 5 minutes of the auction but [i]most of the time you have a little bit of time to contact the seller for more pictures and info, look around on the internet, check serial numbers, etc., etc.. As I've said many times now, the time to ask "is this real?" is -before- you bid. If you're not sure, don't bid...it really is -that- simple. And if that bargain get's away, there are LOTS of other guitars out there!!! Yea...many of us here -are- fisherman in the regard that many of us have stories about "the one that got a way"...it happens...but the world doesn't come to a crashing end because of it...you just find something else instead.

Ok...my opinion and it's a subjective one at that but, to me this really seems to be that whole "gambler's mentality" in not knowing -when- to just walk away. Someone goes to Vegas (or any casino now a days) with the intent of "winning a couple of thousand dollars"...they know it really doesn't work that way but that's the attitude they walk in the door with. Then they get themselves in deeper and deeper trying to simply win back the money they've already lost, which in some cases could be the mortgage or the monthly rent payment. Everyone wants something for nothing but a great many people just aren't smart about it...at all.

So again I have to stand by what I've written both here and in other threads, the way to protect yourself is to know what you're looking for, know what you're looking at and ask the questions -before- you buy. There's still no guarantee that you're not going to get burned but you -can- minimize the chances by being smart about it.

Peace,
Jim

"Do you miss me"??

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"Another day in paradise!"

Objectively speaking, I have no problem with it as it doesn't affect me one way or the other.

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You dig?

Objectively speaking, I have no problem with it as it doesn't affect me one way or the other.

_________________
You dig?