I see no other reason for selling the custom shop certificate and neckplate than to help someone commit fraud. Maybe I am being too myopic on this but would be interested if someone has a different take.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0422590298

Regards,

DP

It has been reported.

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You're only as strong as
the drinks you pour,
the tables you dance on,
and the friends you roll with.

I reported the item too. I suppose someone could claim they just want to hang it in a frame on their wall but I am not convinced.

This topic concerning sale of C.S. certificates etc. was bandied about endlessly just a few weeks ago without resolve but with a vast majority saying it was completely unethical if not illegal.

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'65 Strat,65 Mustang,65 Jaguar,4 more Strats,3 vintage Vox guitars,5 Vox amps,'69 Bassman with a '68 2-15 Bassman cab,36 guitars total-15asst'd amps total,2 vintage '60s Hammond organs & a myriad of effects-with a few rare vintage ones.

Can't Fender engrave or etch a serial number into the body and neck (or other parts too) and put that number on the COA as well? You would have to dismantle the guitar to prove its authenticy but it seems like a logical way to verify it.

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And what would stop someone from etching numbers into older guitars that were made before the process started? There is no viable solution that I can see. It's just something we have to live with and another reason why I refuse to get involved with the sale or purchase of specialty and/or vintage instruments.

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Just think of how awesome a guitar player you could have been by now if you had only spent the last 10 years practicing instead of obsessing over pickups and roasted maple necks.

This is just another reason not to worry about the name on the headstock. As long as it feels and sounds good it really shouldn't matter who made it as long as you don't overpay for it.

Well...ok...I'm going to be the odd ball here again but the way I see it is that you can't really blame the seller on the buyer's intent here. In this specific case I could see where a potential buyer could have perhaps lost their certificate or something (although yea...that seems unlikely) and would be interested in purchasing a new one. For that matter, I can also see where a serious guitar freak may want something like this just so they can frame it and hang it in their studio or something. Perhaps in this case the seller may have even had the guitar and something happened to it...maybe it was lost, stolen or destroyed in some way and the seller no longer needs or wants the certificate. I can be willing to be a little open minded here to give someone the benefit of the doubt.

We really have to be careful about being "judgmental" over such things such as this. If we were to judge a sale such as this as being "unlawful" or "immoral" because the "intent is clearly fraud", then it could also be said that selling Stratocaster -parts- should be illegal or banned and is somehow wrong based on the same exact reasoning. Even something as simple as saddles...someone looking to buy "Fender stamped" saddles could be looking to commit fraud. Certainly someone who buys a Fender neck from an Ebay source such as "The Stratosphere" MUST intend to commit some kind of fraud. Obviously that -can be- the case sometimes but not always...in fact it's not even the general rule.

Essentially the argument here seems to be that the seller is making it easy for someone to commit fraud with the reasoning being that is the -only- possible reason for selling such an item. But if we're going to use that kind of reasoning than let's look at this from a different perspective...gun sales. Let's face it, guns are only good for -one- thing...killing...period...end of story. Some people are of the mind that "guns don't kill, people do" but guns -do- make it EASY for people to kill...if the guns weren't there to begin with, a great many people would be much less inclined to use them. -But- does that mean that the makers and sellers of firearms are responsible for how a buyer chooses to use their products? By most legal definitions, no. Same thing applies to someone who get's drunk and decides to drive a car...and ends up killing someone on their way to the next bar. Is it really the fault of the folks at Jack Daniels or Bacardi? The bar that sold the person the booze? Is it the auto makers fault? No...it's the dumb $@! who got drunk and got behind the wheel. They -knew- it was wrong but they chose to do it anyways. I realize these are extreme examples but the exact same reasoning does apply. Maybe we should ban the sale of things like pocket knifes and Exacto knifes...and even kitchen knives because they might be used as weapons. Sorry but you're not allow to own a 10" chef's knife unless you have certification to use it in a kitchen and only -after- you go through a background check. Nope...you can't own an ax or a sledgehammer, let alone a chainsaw because you might use it to kill your neighbor (or husband, wife, parents, children, etc).

Regardless of "moral implications", you can't really blame a seller for the buyer's intent. Should sellers out there take more responsibility about such matters? Probably...to me I think that people need to take more responsibility for their own actions as a whole but this is really a different issue in and of itself. Once you start imposing that kind of mentality, there are a great many other much greater moral implications to consider. Beyond the "spirit of the law", who should really decide what's "right" and "wrong"? Should we -really- ban the sale of all after market guitar parts just because someone might use them to commit fraud? If so, who get's to decide that? The folks that run big guitar companies who are really only interested in "profit"?

There is a very fine line here in regards to all of this. One must weigh the possibilities of "intent" against common sense and even personal liberties. When we start creating laws that impose on personal liberties, that's NEVER a good thing. Anyone here in the US try recently to buy a crappy box of sinus medication? You have to literally fill out forms now and provide a state ID just to buy a stinkin' box antihistamines...because someone might use it to make a bomb or something. It's totally ridiculous. So that said, do we really want to institute some type of "morality monitoring" over guitar parts all because someone might use them to commit fraud???

In the end, as I said over in the Strat forum what it comes down to is a seller protecting themselves. People get taken by fraud because they -allow- themselves to be taken. In this case, even if a buyer did purchase that certificate and neck plate with the direct intention of turning around and fraudulently selling a guitar with them, that does NOT mean that anyone here would have to buy that guitar! In this case, if a person see's that certificate and neck plate and decides to buy that instrument, that's not really the sellers fault...no one forced you to bid without checking the serial number or other aspects of the instrument first.


I have no doubt that I'm going to get flamed over that so please remember that as always, these are just my own personal opinions and MUST be taken as such...it's just a little counter-point for people to consider.

Peace,
Jim

Well I was kind of on Jays side last time but this time he really nailed it. If I had to go by % I would say 85% of those COA's are used to dupe someone. Lets keep it real here how many people need a new plate and COA. It is to dupe someone into buying the top of the shelf ax and nothing more. If anyone has ever been duped you now the sickening feeling and to be honest I was duped once on a guitar that no one else but me and the seller would know about. After the transaction I just had the feeling something was not right and did so much research till I found what I was looking for. Till this day I am looking for that #$%^ and when I find him I am goig to leave him one eye so he can see what I did to him.

Jay came upon a good system or they could develop something similar but you know what-they will not do it. Because you will get it will be to much of a problem or it will cost to much. The bottom line it is laziness and would be a little bit of work.

I really like Mike E and I think he could bring this to ever has the last word and they would listen to him. The funny thing is so many people are afraid of buying a guitar on ebay because they might get burnt , yet I have never been burnt buying a guitar there. But the things they can do today makes it so easy for the average Joe to bet burnt. I hate to say it but when you grow up in NY you go into a deal thinking something is not right and to prove it is.