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Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 10:44 am
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Toronado wrote:
2) Suppose you're playing with a few other musicians, and someone proposes a jam in Eb Major. That would mean a jam in the key of Eb with a major progression, right? As a rhythm guitarist, what is going on through my mind to put a nice progression together? Likewise for playing lead -- What should I be thinking when playing lead? What are my options?



Does the circle of 5ths help in this case?

Next to Eb major is Bb major, Ab major and c minor, g minor and f minor.


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Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 10:55 am
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inbalance99 wrote:
Toronado wrote:
2) Suppose you're playing with a few other musicians, and someone proposes a jam in Eb Major. That would mean a jam in the key of Eb with a major progression, right? As a rhythm guitarist, what is going on through my mind to put a nice progression together? Likewise for playing lead -- What should I be thinking when playing lead? What are my options?



Does the circle of 5ths help in this case?

Next to Eb major is Bb major, Ab major and c minor, g minor and f minor.


Hi inbalance99! Yes, it does! And that's what my next post will be about.
The circle of fifths and fourths. That's exactly it! But, I'm working on it to make it as simple as possible to understand.

Stay tuned!

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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:06 pm
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Hi guys!
Well, I am in the middle of writing about the circle of fifths and the circle of fourths, and I've just realized I don't have the ability to make any charts or diagrams on the computer. And we need them as an easy to understand example. So, I am going to do the only thing I possibly can about it...I'm gonna "borrow" a couple of charts/diagrams from the internet! :D :oops: Don't worry, I'll name where I took it from. Of course, I am going to explain everything in my own way and use the charts/diagrams as visual examples. That's why they seem to exist, right!?
To make things more...well...visual. So, the diagrams won't be my creation, but we are sure gonna use somebody else's blood, sweat and tears on this thread. Hey, it's not stealing! Do you want to learn this stuff or not!? You see, we're just borrowing. 8)
Ok, we agree on that!
But, there's something else I need to know. When we are done with "the circles", I don't really know what to talk about next but about writing music. About writing notes. It's a bit more difficult to talk about it on blank paper, so due to my hadicapped knowledge of drawing boards, charts and diagrams, I am gonna be forced to find them on the internet and stick them in here. It's hard work, but I'm up for it! If you want to learn to write music that is. I told you at the very beginning that I'm gonna make it simple and only talk about important things in music theory. Well, writing music is something you can do without, so it actually is an option here. I can't make up my mind if it's "too much information" and whether you are interested in learning that. I think we should proceed with it, but I want to know if you have the will to learn about it. To read and write music.
So, please let me know if you are up for it. The last thing I want is to make this boring, so...

Here's what Mr. Steve Lukather thinks about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36uctlODEfw

If any questions about previous "chapters", just shoot!

Goran

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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:30 pm
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Goranm,

I think a lesson on writing music would be extremely valuable, especially after all you've taught us. I'm very much looking forward to your post regarding the circle of fifths and fourths!

I have a another question while I'm here. In the "Hendrix Chord", E7#9, what happened to the fifth? I feel like I've heard somewhere down the road that the fifth is removable in some cases. I was hoping you could shed some light this :o

Thanks and have a good one!~


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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:57 pm
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Lately I've stumbled across some really pretty "jazz" chords. I wish I knew a little more about music theory, but I've always played by ear or by putting my fingers where it sounds good.

I have no idea what the names of the chords I'm playing are, nor do I know what makes a set of notes a certain chord.

For example, if I'm playing A-C-E-G across the fretboard in no particular order, is it an Am7 or a Cadd6?

It's all so confusing.

Maybe that's why I just stick to my way.


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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:05 pm
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This is awesome. I love it. Can we have a seperate thread for questions or feedback so this thread is just the lessons. it'll make picking up where we left off easier. Just a suggestion but it's a money idea. We all appreciate it!

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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:09 am
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Toronado wrote:
Goranm,

I think a lesson on writing music would be extremely valuable, especially after all you've taught us. I'm very much looking forward to your post regarding the circle of fifths and fourths!

I have a another question while I'm here. In the "Hendrix Chord", E7#9, what happened to the fifth? I feel like I've heard somewhere down the road that the fifth is removable in some cases. I was hoping you could shed some light this :o

Thanks and have a good one!~


I didn't see this question before. You must have edited your post. And I didn't even get the e-mails about new posts on this thread. Weird!

Regarding the E7#9...Indeed you can loose the fifth. As a matter of fact, the fifth can be removed from any chord. It's all your preference. But, if you do lose the fifth in a chord, you still have the option of playing it in a scale over the chord you chose to remove the fifth from. If you wish to play it, that is.
With this particular fingering of the "Hendrix chord", on the sixth fret I believe, there is no fifth. The fifth of the E major is a B. In this case, I believe the fifth is removed from the chord simply because you have a low E as a bass. But you can add the fifith to it if you like. You can use your thumb to play a B note on the seventh fret. I use my thumb all the time. You can also find a way to play a B note, seventh fret, on the high e string. It's just the nature of the guitar as an instrument. Sometimes you are forced to make some changes, such as rotating fingers, and finding new ways of playing certain chords. Let's reverse it a bit. Let's try to play the same E7#9 chord on the first fret. Take the basic E major fingering. You need to make an E7 first, so you need to add a D note to the E major chord. You can simply put your little finger on the third fret, B string (which is a D note), and you have an E7 chord. In order to make a #9, you need a G note (#9=1/2 note above the root of the chord). There are a couple of possibilities now. That fingering of the E7 chord on the first fret got all of your fingers used, except the thumb. You need a G note to make an E7#9, right?! Right! Well, we can make that #9 a bass note. Simply by putting you thumb on the third fret, low E string. That's one way. Another way is putting your little finger on the third fret, on both B and high E strings. Another way is letting go of the G# note (which is the third in E major scale) on the first fret, G string, and thus getting an open G note to play in your E7#9. But now without the third, it's an E7#9sus (also written E7#9 [no third]). But that is not the chord you want, you need an E7#9, there is nothing about the missing third, so you need a third. You now need to rotate fingers a bit. Because the third I want i on high e string, fourth fret (G# note, remember). So when you rotate your fingers, with your first three fingers you are now practically holding an Em7, and with your little finger you on the fourth fret, high e string, you get a major third again, so it once again becomes a major chord, an E7#9. There are a couple of more options of how to play that chord on the first fret. The point is that it's all personal preference and what you want. The reason why the fifth can be removed from any chord is because the fifth is the kind of interval that is part of every chord. And by dropping it, the chord stays the same. It's still the same chord you began with. It doesn't change the chord, except you play it with no fifth. There's no any kind of fifth, nor diminished nor augmented, when dropped. You can do that with a third as well. The only difference is that there is a name for the chord without the third, it is either a SUS chord (Esus7#9/E7#9sus (written in both ways) for example). If you ever come accros an E5, or G5, or Am5, etc. , it means that you play the chord with no third(s). You play only the root and the fifth of the chord.
But, if you remove the fifth from the chord, it's better to write it down. So, that others playing that same piece of music can be aware of that.
So, the E7#9 on the sixth fret should be written E7#9 (no fifth).
I hope this helps.

Goran

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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:41 am
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GregoryJoseph wrote:
...I have no idea what the names of the chords I'm playing are, nor do I know what makes a set of notes a certain chord.

For example, if I'm playing A-C-E-G across the fretboard in no particular order, is it an Am7 or a Cadd6?

It's all so confusing.



Hi Gregory Joseph! You have a reasonably good question. You can learn something about the names of the chords and the ways of making them and scales and how to make chords and name them yourself on this thread. I hope! That's what made me do this. I want you all to know this stuff, because it's really not so "taboo" as some want you to think.

About the Am7/C6 question. Well...it's both! Because that is one of the enharmonic chords we talked about earlier on this thread. Enharmonic meaning one note played, but written as two notes. The notes you mentioned do make both Am7 and C6 chord.

Notes that make an Am7 chord:
A- the root of the chord C-the third of the chord E- the fifth

In order to make an Am7, you need to add the MINOR seventh to those basic notes of the Am chord. And that would be a G note. So, basically all those notes make a Am7 chord.

Notes that make a C6 chord:
C-the root of the chord E-the third of the chord G-the fifth
The sixth note in C major scale is an A note. So once again, you have those same notes as in Am7 chord. But, this time, the C note being the root by which the chord got its name, it's called C6. It really doesn't matter what you call that chord, Am7 or C6, the chord is the same, and it has the notes you need. If you want to play that notes exactly, you can call it either way, because it is both.
More about it:
There are only twelve notes on this earth, and they are:
C, C# (or Db), D, D# (Eb), E, F, F# (or Gb), G, G# (or Ab), A, A# (or Bb), B, and all over again! The symbols in the brackets mean, in a way, the alternate name of the chord. It is called enharmonic. It means that the notes (or chords) sound the same, but are written differently. Like C# which is exactly the same note as Db. There are also enharmonic chords, like C# major and Db major. That happens with sharpened or diminished notes (or chords).
(quote from page 1, “Music theory” thread, post 1)

Goran

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Last edited by Goranm on Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:52 am
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goose63 wrote:
This is awesome. I love it. Can we have a seperate thread for questions or feedback so this thread is just the lessons. it'll make picking up where we left off easier. Just a suggestion but it's a money idea. We all appreciate it!


Hi goose63! Well, you're right! It would be easier to follow if there were two separate threads. But, I think, because the questions are about the "lessons", it is essential to be all in one place. The answered questions can be of great help to many others than to just the ones that asked. Maybe the answers can clarify something not previously understood from the original post(s).

Of course, you can all always e-mail me questions too. I believe I made my e-mail public.

Goran

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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:34 pm
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I "dropped" the circles. I don't think it's fun enough and I don't think it's easy to understand enough. It's just me talking about it and presenting the charts/diagrams in hope you'll understand. That sort of writing you have all over the web. The last thing I want is to make this thread boring and dull.

So, I have come up with a couple of new features:

I want all of you interested in this to post here chord progressions, melodies, bass lines, songs, demos, ideas…everything you can think of really and everything you can make up. My part in all that is to take those chords, melodies, notes…make something out of it, post it here and analyze it completely. Why that goes with this, why is this good or bad with that, etc. That way we’re all involved in this, and we’re all learning together. And the most important thing, having fun. I think we should learn the circle of fifths and the circle of fourths step by step and analyze every single one of them. Because “the circles” do represent the peak of what we have learned so far. Through the circles we’ll get into writing music as well. So, just writing everything in one or two posts doesn’t sound as good and effective as it should be. By taking your suggestions and exploring and deepening them it becomes more personal to you than just reading some boring stuff and looking at some charts. Eventually, we’ll come to the famous diagrams of the circles, but by the time we get there, there will be no need for any explanation. You’ll understand it.

Hopefully, you are up for this. I am going to play the theme(s) (either on piano or guitar) came up from your choice of notes, chords, melodies, etc, make the tabs and analyze, and post it here... It takes some time to do all that, so I hope for some patience and understanding. We can take certain songs and analyze them as well. We need to go step by step in order for you to understand it properly.

EXAMPLE: Let’s say you have a melody, but not chord progression for it. You post your melody here, and I make the chord progression and post it back. Along with the proper analysis and explanation of the whole demo. We are making demos basically. Simple ones. So, please don't make it long. It’s better to make more simple ones, than one long one. I need time to do all that, simply because I must learn how to use this recording program and the program for writing guitar tabs. I must learn how to do that on computer. I am used to the old fashion way. Yeah, yeah, I’m 25, but I’m an old fashioned kind of guy! :oops: :lol: :D 8)

Goran

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Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:31 am
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Ok! My little experiment with explaining through notes, melodies you come up with...didn't quite work out. So, I must inform you that I'll post about the circles during the upcoming weekend. Yes, we are back to the good old "method" of mine. But, the new features I mentioned in the previous post are opened and if anyone comes with some melody, chord progression, and so forth, that needs to be explained and analyzed, please feel free to post.

Oh, and as usual, if any questions...shoot!
"...Ask, and it shall be answered." :D 8)

Cheers!

Goran

PS Wow! This is the 100th post on this thread! My personal thread record! :shock: :lol:

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Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:10 am
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Guys! Hmmmm...How do I post a picture here???????????????
Tried to post about the circles, but I can't seem to post the diagram of the circle. And it needs to be here! I can put it on Photobucket, but we need it to be visible here, in the text about the circles, not on another window.
I've never posted pictures here, so HELP!

Thanks!

Goran

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Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:36 am
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And now, as promised, the famous cirles! The circle of fifths and the circle of fourths!
I am quite sure that after this post, there will be questions, but they are all going to be answered.


CIRCLE OF FIFTHS/FOURTHS

How come I want to write about music, and sit on this chair with no music from these speakers!? Maaan! I knew something was missing! What shall we listen to…hmmmm…let’s see…Dave Grusin? No, I listened to it last night. Bill Conti? No, I listen to it all the time. Deep Purple? No, I’m more of a Rainbow fan. Jerry Goldsmith soundtracks? No, it must be a guitarist, and the complicated one too! I know! Mr. Eric Johnson! That’s right! The man himself! What a great musician! And a Fender player! A strat man!

Ok! Now that we took care of the atmosphere and great mood with great music, why not begin the long waited post!


CIRCLES (which one is up to you; just joking!)

Well…the circles represent the relationships among the notes/tones. As you all know, and as we mentioned a couple of times before, there are only twelve notes on this Earth. So, the circle of fifths represent the twelve existing notes, the relationships between and among each one of them, that is. Maybe, on Mars there are more notes, or maybe less, who knows, but we’re forced to wait for NASA to tell us. Wow, I’m obsessed with space. And music! And science in general. It’s gonna make me crazy! :shock:
Why is it called the circle of fifths, I hear you ask!? Because, as we all know, the fifth is the interval which is, kind of…neutral. Meaning that it is part of, both, major and minor scales and chords. In this case, it’s called the perfect fifth I believe. And that “perfect” rules out the different modes of fifths, such as diminished and augmented ones, since we are only interested in the basic, normal, usual fifths this time. So, when talking, thinking or applying and playing, and of course using the circle of fifths, “the fifth” we are talking about is the common fifth, with no modes whatsoever. As a matter of fact, when we were talking about building chord progressions and which chords go with which, we indirectly talked about the circle of fifths. That is why I believe this diagram (or whatever it’s called) will be hard for you to understand. At first. Because you don’t read or write music (at least not yet), and it has to do a lot with that. But, that can’t stop you from learning how to use it properly. That’s why we’re talking about it now. Oh yes, and because I am going to use the circles to get you into writing music. That could be another reason.

Here it is:
Image

(taken from Wikipedia)

His majesty, The Circle Of Fifths! And Fourths! I’ll explain the fourths later. You must admit that looking at it doesn’t make any good! You’re probably asking what the hell is that. No need to get nervous, the explanation will follow, as it always does.

Now remember this! We are using diatonic scales to play and make chords, etc. You know what is, and how to find, the fifth interval. On piano it’s very simple, it’s the fifth note/key from the root. But, guitar is a chromatic instrument, again, meaning that all notes are mixed together, and are next to each other on the fretboard. Not divided to white (whole notes) and black keys (semi notes/tones) as on piano. So, the fifth is the fifth WHOLE note from the root, but the seventh SEMI note from the root. Again, “semi note” meaning half a note. In example, from D to E is a whole note space, but from D to Eb is half a note space. So, when you play all notes that are half a note from one another, you’re playing a chromatic scale, which is actually the scale of semi notes. So, you are playing semi notes. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

Alright! A little rest now, and we’ll continue after the refreshments!

And we’re back! Nothing better than a cup of cold milk! I love milk!




Let’s continue:

If you look at the diagram of the circle of fifths, you can see that it starts from C, that it has sharps and flats, that it has enharmonic chords/notes, major and minor scales…all in one little diagram.
It will take a couple of posts to analyze all that and get through confusion. This is, after all, an attack at your brain. So, we’ll do it slowly, step by step.

First, you see that it starts from C, and it goes G, D, A, B, F#/Gb, C#/Db… You can see that those are all notes that, in this case, form major scales. Today, we’ll stay with major chords represented in the circle of fifths. For now. What do these notes have in common?! Well, every note is the fifth interval of the previous one. G is the fifth in C major scale, D is the fifth of G major scale, A is the fifth of D major, and so on. You remember we talked why certain notes and chords sound so good and natural with each other. Because there is always at least one note that links them. There’s always a certain note that is some kind of interval in one scale and that same note can be another interval in some other scale. In example, we had C6 and Am7, which are enharmonic chords (same sounding, but differently written). Note A is the sixth in C major scale, but the same note A is the root of A minor scale. One note with different roles in different scales. There is no need to remember the circle of fifths, no need to memorize the diagram, especially because we are going to ignore the writing of the intervals that you can see beside every note. For the time being at least. We simply don’t need it for now. We need to know how this works first. And here’s how it works:
Let’s say you, or your band is playing a certain song in one key, and you want to make it in a different one. So, you must modulate the song. In order to do that, you must understand how it all works. For example, the song you play is in D, but you want it to be higher. And you don’t know what key will suit. You are not going to go through all keys in order to find the best one. And even when you find the right one, you wouldn’t know where to go next, except to give your best shot at going through all of them again, and again until the completion of the song. It’s hard and annoying work. You’ll modulate it using the circles. We’ll stick to major chords today, for simplicity. What you need to do is to see, determine, if the song in D, for example, do you want it lower or to be higher. So that you could know whether to modulate it to lower or higher register.
For example, the song goes- D, A, C, G (you choose the rhythm). And you need it modulated higher. You have a D chord. Hmmm, what chord should it be?! I know! Let’s take the fifth of the D major scale and play it! The fifth is an A chord! Oh, yeah, it sounds great. That it! But, I still have three chords left to go! I know, I’ll try different ones and see which one is the best to go with an A. WRONG!!! You have the second chord to modulate, and you know it’s an A. But, my first chord is an A in this song. Yeah, but that new key A you took for the song came from the D, the original key of song. So, I must take the second chord and find the fifth of it, and play it as a major chord. And it must sound great because it’s derived from the chords of the original song. So, the fifth of A major chord is an E. Yeah, I’ll now play A, then E! And keep the same rhythm! What’s the third chord? A C? Yeah, I know the fifth of C major is a G! Yeah, A, E, then G! Still play the same rhythm! I have another chord left, a G! What’s the fifth of G major?! A D!!!!!!! Yeah, a D major!
So, instead of D, A, C and G
I’ll play a modulated version with the same rhythm and the same way: A, E, G and D.

Yeah, and it sounds the same alright! Well, almost anyway. It’s just in a different key!

No need to remember anything here, it’s just the matter of intervals. And we’ve been through intervals. You just use the knowledge of the fifths here. Nothing more. The diagram of the circles is nothing more than a sketch of intervals, the fifths and fourths. The way you use them makes difference.

TO BE CONTINUED…

Until next weekend…

Cheers!

Goran

PS YEAH!!! I did it!!! I know how to post pictures! I know how to post pictures! I know how to post pictures! :D 8) :lol: :) :evil: :twisted:

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Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:32 pm
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Thank you Goranm!

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Thank you Goranm!
War and Peace comes to mind :wink:

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