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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:24 pm
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Cool - I'm looking forward to getting home tonight and having a play with this. Thanks Goranm! :D

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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:25 am
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Yesterday, at the end of my post about the ninths, I said we concluded the intervals. Well, guess what! I was wrong! There are a couple of more things about intervals to be said:

We talked about the fourths and the sixths before, but not in this context as we are about to.

Yesterday we learned what the ninths are and how to build them.
You know that when you only add the ninth to the basic chord it becomes the add9 chord. But when you add the ninth to a seventh chord (both major seventh and minor seventh chords) you have a 9 chord. And that 9 chord is actually a 7/9 chord, with that 7 in the name of the chord usually being taken out for simplicity of it all (as if it can be more simple, right!?) and only called the 9 chord. And the ninth note of the scale is nothing more than the second! We’ll take the same principle and pattern to the following:

THE ELEVENTHS

Now pay attention and see how easy this really is!
Using the logic that the ninths are actually the seconds, what do you think the elevenths are? The fourths! Easy a?! So, what will you do if you want to make an add11 chord?
Well, just add the eleventh/fourth to a basic chord, and voilà an add11 chord! But, if you want to make an eleventh chord (not add11 but 11), you must have a 7 and a 9 in the basic chord. So you need to have a 7/9 chord to which you add the eleventh interval! And only then is it called the eleventh chord! So, the same as with the ninths.
The 11 chord is really a 7/9/11 chord.

If you want a b11 (flat eleven) chord all you need to do is lower the eleventh for half a step. The same if you want a #11 chord. But, in both cases you MUST KEEP the seventh and the ninth or else it would be addb11 or add#11. You always must have 7/9 if you want to make an 11! Of course, 7/9/11 added together, at the same time, to the basic chord!
One more thing about the elevenths. That’s all possible when you have the third in the chord (both major or minor third). But, when and if you loose the third and add the fourth, even if you already have a 7/9, it would not be an 11 chord, but 7/9sus4 chord (for more information on SUS chords, revisit “The fourths” on this thread).


THE THIRTEENTHS

The thirteenths are the sixths! And again, you MUST HAVE the 7/9 (you don’t have an eleventh in a 13 chord!)! Now you understand why the seventh is the most important interval in jazz. And the ninth as well, just after the seventh. Because you cannot make nor the 11 chord nor the 13 chord without the seventh and the ninth. They must be there all the time. If they’re not there, it’s simply an ADD chord.
Now, if you want a b13 (flat thirteen), you just lower the thirteenth/the sixth for half a step. The same goes with a #13 (sharp thirteen), just augment the thirteenth for half a step/note.
Now, remember this! There are add13 chords in music literature, but they are nothing more than the sixths! The add13 chord is a simple 6 chord. Basic chord with an added sixth, nothing more. So, don’t let that confuse you. Like I said a couple of times, it all depends where you’re from. BUT! If you lower or augment the thirteenth, it’s not a b6, or a #6 (also seen in music literature), it’s an addb13, or add#13 (more common).

I believe I didn’t forget anything about the elevenths and the thirteenths today. If I have, I’ll let you know. But, all you need, and all there is to know about them, we have mentioned today.

If you have any questions about any interval(s), please ask. Before we move on with some new stuff.

Enjoy!

Goran

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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:42 am
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A SUGGESTION: On guitar you must be careful when making these more complicated chords. Because you'll have to let go of some note(s). The notes you'll let go usually are the ones duplicated or that are double in the basic chord. You can have as many same notes in a chord (if you can pull it off physically) as you want, but you must have at least one note that goes in the given chord. In other words, you must have all the basic notes of the basic chord as well as all the intervals that make the chord you want to make. Often you'll have to let go of a certain note (or two notes) and look for those same notes on other strings. That usually happens when you need a note on a string that's already taken. So, you'll have to rotate notes a bit. But, it's all a matter of practice. And relatively easy when you know the notes on the fingerboard.
Don't force it, it will come to you naturally. Believe me. Just think about it a little. Don't let that irritate you, because it can. Take your time!

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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:38 pm
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Th man of the hour is back -- right on! :o


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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:49 pm
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Toronado wrote:
Th man of the hour is back -- right on! :o


Of course I'm back, mate! I don't think I ever left though, just had some small issues.
Plus, all of this takes time to "cook" and pack into a certain form. I need to think about it first, before I present it here. So, honestly, I have no idea when I'll post next, but rest assured it will happen. I'm thinking about it, exploring some ideas, approaches and methods of explaining it so that it is easy to understand. It's hard work, but I love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PS I think Ceri is the man of the hour.

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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:48 pm
Great idea!


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Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 1:51 am
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music theory bump

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Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:06 pm
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Goranm wrote:
Now that we know how to create and make major 7 chords, why not continue all the way through!

So, now we have come to minor sevenths! Which is really called simply “the sevenths”! You don’t have to use the “minor” prefix. So, if you hear or read C7, or Am7, etc. it is referred to minor sevenths.

It is built this way:
Basic chord (root, the third, the fifth) and ADDing one whole note below the root! You see the difference between the major and minor sevenths?! In major sevenths to basic chords you add half a note from the root of the chord (and scale), but in minor or simply seventh chords you add the note that is one whole note below the root.

Example: C major (notes: C E G), you want a C7. You still hold those basic notes of the chord (root, the third and the fifth) and add the note that is one whole note below C, which is Bb. So, C7 will have notes: C E G Bb. The same is with any other chord!!!
We mentioned E, so E7 will have these notes: E – the root, G# - the third, B – the fifth, and adding the 7th note of the scale which is D. One whole note below E, the root.


I have a concern. I've always thought minors included a b3. Therefore a minor chord uses 1-b3-5, minor7 uses 1-b3-5-b7, etc.

I think there might be a mixup here in that C7 is notation for a dominant chord, one which doesn't have the b3 (1-3-5-b7). A Cm7 would have the b3.

Or am I completely crazy? Who knows? :?


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Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:14 am
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Toronado wrote:
Goranm wrote:
Now that we know how to create and make major 7 chords, why not continue all the way through!

So, now we have come to minor sevenths! Which is really called simply “the sevenths”! You don’t have to use the “minor” prefix. So, if you hear or read C7, or Am7, etc. it is referred to minor sevenths.

It is built this way:
Basic chord (root, the third, the fifth) and ADDing one whole note below the root! You see the difference between the major and minor sevenths?! In major sevenths to basic chords you add half a note from the root of the chord (and scale), but in minor or simply seventh chords you add the note that is one whole note below the root.

Example: C major (notes: C E G), you want a C7. You still hold those basic notes of the chord (root, the third and the fifth) and add the note that is one whole note below C, which is Bb. So, C7 will have notes: C E G Bb. The same is with any other chord!!!
We mentioned E, so E7 will have these notes: E – the root, G# - the third, B – the fifth, and adding the 7th note of the scale which is D. One whole note below E, the root.


I have a concern. I've always thought minors included a b3. Therefore a minor chord uses 1-b3-5, minor7 uses 1-b3-5-b7, etc.

I think there might be a mixup here in that C7 is notation for a dominant chord, one which doesn't have the b3 (1-3-5-b7). A Cm7 would have the b3.

Or am I completely crazy? Who knows? :?


Toronado my man! You got me through a lot of self-examination (no, not physical!). I mean, WOW! You got me thinking, re-reading my own posts and all that stuff. And, I can tell you this! I'm glad you did!
No, you are not crazy! Everything you said about the thirds, both minor and major is correct! And that's exactly it!!! You talked about the thirds. You forgot that the post you quoted is not about the thirds, but the sevenths. I talked about the sevenths before the thirds because I believed the thirds were a bit more complicated to start with. What I'm trying to say is that taken out of the context, that part of my post you quoted, does sound strange and it really got me thinking what the hell I was on when I was writing it. But, after more reading of my own writings, and even trying to edit some stuff on page 2, from where you took that quote, I realized that you misunderstood, not the topic, but the concept and my method of explaining. If we can call it that way. The subject and the title of that whole section is "The intervals", meaning that, when analyzed, that part you quoted was referring to "minor seventh(s)", the minor seventh(s) interval! As you obviously know, both major and minor chords can make both major (M7/maj7) and minor sevenths (m7). That's why I made an example of C7 and Am7 chords. I wanted to emphasize that both modes of the chords (major third and minor third chords) can be made into MAJOR AND MINOR SEVENTHS!
Now, if you read that whole section about the sevenths, both parts, the major and minor sevenths together, I think it makes sense, and cannot be misunderstood. I am writing in segments so that you would have time to go through each part separately and not get confused or fed up with all that stuff. So, it is about "major and minor seventh INTERVALS! Not chords in general. Both major and minor CHORDS can be sevenths. That's what I was talking about! Maybe I didn't explain it well due to language issue (I'm from Serbia), but I did my best. I hope now you understand what I meant in that part of the post. If not, please let me know!

Actually, I am a bit late with my next post because I need to "research" the subject I want to post here in English language more. I need to check certain terms, words and see if that's what it's called in English, etc.

So, stay tuned! More coming!

Goran

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Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 2:46 pm
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Ah, it was my fault. I hadn't read as far as the 3rds section yet, and perhaps jumped the gun a little too quickly. I've printed each of your posts and am slowly going through a few pages a day. School is out for me now and so I have a little more time to learn something I actually find interesting :P

I think your teaching method is fantastic, by the way. Every post is loaded with useful information. Keep up the good work, Mr. Goran! Looking forward to the next installment!


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Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 10:09 pm
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Dude! Thank you so much! this is wonderful!! I've been needing help like since my guitar teacher moved out of the state!! I read the first two and all I can say is WOW so informative and easy to understand! thanks again!

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Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 12:17 pm
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I have a couple lesson requests I've been wondering about, if you wouldn't mind :D

1) Could we go over the seven modes? In your lessons you say that scales should be played over chords having the same notes. For example a CmAddM7 chord would be played over by a Harmonic minor scale(1-2-b3-4-5-b6-7). I'm having trouble understanding where then some of the modes come in. For example Lydian is (1-2-3-#4-5-6-7) - How am I ever going to put this to use? Or is it that each particular mode conveys a different mood and so it doesn't matter what the technical makeup of the scale is? Any clarification on this would be most helpful! :D

2) Suppose you're playing with a few other musicians, and someone proposes a jam in Eb Major. That would mean a jam in the key of Eb with a major progression, right? As a rhythm guitarist, what is going on through my mind to put a nice progression together? Likewise for playing lead -- What should I be thinking when playing lead? What are my options?

Thanks a million if you could get to these. It can be hard when you don't have someone whom you can ask these types of questions to.

Have a good one!!


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Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 1:41 pm
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Toronado wrote:
I have a couple lesson requests I've been wondering about, if you wouldn't mind :D

1) Could we go over the seven modes? In your lessons you say that scales should be played over chords having the same notes. For example a CmAddM7 chord would be played over by a Harmonic minor scale(1-2-b3-4-5-b6-7). I'm having trouble understanding where then some of the modes come in. For example Lydian is (1-2-3-#4-5-6-7) - How am I ever going to put this to use? Or is it that each particular mode conveys a different mood and so it doesn't matter what the technical makeup of the scale is? Any clarification on this would be most helpful! :D


Hi Toronado! I’m glad you ask if something is not understood! Here’s what I want all of you to know, and what I was/am trying to explain:
First, I am also glad you mentioned another mode/type of the scale, Lydian in this case. Because, you do not need to know what the name of the scale is in order to play it. Oh, just one more thing, you mentioned “CmAddM7” chord. I don’t know what chord that is.
I presume you mean CmM7. Because if you have a seventh (both major or minor) it is not an ADD chord. ADD chord is only when you do not have a seventh in it, but you have an added 9 or 11 or 13, without sevenths! So, I’ll presume you mean CmM7.
Let me use that chord as an example.

CmM7 notes: C Eb/D# G B
C minor scale-harmonic: C D Eb F G Ab B and C again

You see, when both notes of the chord and of the scale stand next to each other, or one below or above the other one as in this case, that the chord was derived from that scale. You know that for this chord you need the root – C, the MINOR third (it is, after all, a minor chord)- Eb, the fifth-G note and the MAJOR seventh-B. Now, you have the chord. What would you play over that chord, what scale, what notes!? Well, I too presume you have learned and understand the minor scales we talked about, all three modes. Because, those three modes of minor scales are the basics you’ll start with every time you play in a minor key. Now remember this, in natural minor scale, the seventh you play is a minor seventh! In other two modes, both harmonic and melodic minor scales, the seventh in the scale you play is not a minor seventh, but a major seventh! If we start from here and remember that, when you have a mM7 chord (CmM7 you mentioned for example) you are left with two options now. Because in natural minor scales you have a minor seventh interval, but you have a major seventh interval in the chord! So, you are left with either a harmonic minor scale or a melodic minor scale to play over that chord. How to choose?!
You don’t! Melodic minor scales have sixths, normal sixths! While harmonic minor scales, as you said it yourself, have b6! What I am trying to explain to you is that you need theory not to think much when and what you play, but to be able to analyze your playing afterwards! Having said that, what you need to know is the basics of note relation(s), intervals, certain scales…and that’s about it. Let’s get back to CmM7 chord;
Analyze and “translate” to yourself what that chord consists of: Cm! Aha! It’s a minor chord so it must have minor third in it! Yeah! It’s a M7 (major 7) chord too, so it must have MAJOR seventh in it also. What do we have left?! We know diatonic minor scales! Ok! So, I’ll play a diatonic minor scale. But which one?! The one with the major seventh in it! Ok! But, I have two modes of minor scales that have major seventh interval in them, the harmonic and melodic C minor scale. You don’t make anything with the sixth in the chord, in CmM7. So, it’s a normal sixth. But diminished sixth in a harmonic minor scale sounds good too! SHIIIIIIIT! I can play both over M7 chords! But, how can I make up my mind?! Basically, what you can do is play variations of both. That’s what I love to do! It sounds silly, but you are not making any mistake if you choose to mix the two scales together. Why!? Because teachers like to go by the book! But if any of the great musicians went at all by the book, music would be boring and we wouldn’t want to play and wouldn't enjoy playing! Well, I love to play, I adore it, and I’m gonna do it my way! And there is no soul in this world that’s gonna stop me! The purpose of all this is to show you something that can make you analyze and understand better what you play, not to teach you how to play! In a dogmatic kind of way! You’re asking yourself what the hell is this guy talking about!? I’m talking about this: Through sevenths you found out what scales sound good with the given chord. You can play them both! It depends what you want and where you want to go to. In classical music there this absurd rule (at least what I was taught) that when you play rising (upwards) harmonic or melodic minor scale, when you go down you must play natural minor. It’s absurd! How can anyone tell anybody how and what to play if you like the sound of a harmonic or melodic minor scale going down. Why should I play a natural minor scale if I don’t want to!? You are here to learn something if you want, what you’re going to do with that and how you’re going to use it is completely up to you!
It’s all good, BUT! Why is there no need to know the names of the so much confusing and many, many modes of scales?! Because of this!
If you change anything in a chord, anything at all, you must make the same change in the scale as well! Actually, it’s not that you must, it just doesn’t sound right if you don’t! For example, if you play a CmM7, and you play a melodic or harmonic Cm scale over it, it’s fine. BUT, if and when you make a “little” change in a chord, say, you play a CmM7b5, you should diminish the fifth in the scale as well! If you want it to sound “right”, or “good”, or “beautiful”! Or you can leave a normal fifth in the scale, but play a diminished one in the chord. Or you can play a diminished in the scale, and a normal one in the chord, if you like that. If you are into some kind of psychedelic, gothic…type of music. Or if you simply love that out of key sound! You see, there are no dogmas, “must do” things in music! Even if some teachers would want you to think that way.
The same goes with every other change you make in the chord or in the scale. Whether you dimish or augment the fifth, or loose the third, or add the fourth…you should do the same in the chord and in the scale. That is why you don’t need to know the names of the modes! Every little change you make and that takes you out of a typical, normal scale or chord has a name, but why should you know what it is if you can play it! By making chords and scales the same, you are actually making modes, and their names…who cares! You are musicians, not philosophers! Even though I love philosophy!





Toronado wrote:
2) Suppose you're playing with a few other musicians, and someone proposes a jam in Eb Major. That would mean a jam in the key of Eb with a major progression, right? As a rhythm guitarist, what is going on through my mind to put a nice progression together? Likewise for playing lead -- What should I be thinking when playing lead? What are my options?


Another good question! Again, when you play with others and want to make chord progressions, the most important thing is to play what sounds good to you. But, again, you’ll do that using theory. How? It’s simple!
Here it is, copied from some of my previous posts (hey, I’m not being lazy, I just think I explained it in a simple way). Here it is, from page 3:
…When you play any instrument, and when you're playing a certain chord, and don't really know what to play next, be it a chord or a melody, or in what key for that matter, just look what notes are in the chord you are playing. The reason why certain chords sound so good and beatiful with each other (called chord progression) is because they have at least one note linking them together!
At least one note is the same! Or certain note(s) is/are probably an
interval(s) in some other scale and chord. In other words, same notes make different scales (there are only twelve notes after all). That's why it sounds so good when you go from C to G, or G to D, D to A, A to E (Hey, it's "Hey Joe"!). Because when you start from C, G note in C major is the fifth, and because that note is the link, you can go from C to G and never think about it. So, whenever you're stuck with a chord and you can't see a way out and any next step at all, just try to make the next chord the one that has at least one note the same with the one you're currently playing. But, beware of intervals within the chords. If you're playing sevenths for instance...well, you have more notes to play with if you're in an interval, but the next one you cook from there might not sound so good. Because that seventh you're playing in one chord might be the diminished fifth in the next one, and you might not like the sound of that chord progression. Unless you're into jazz like me. And like the crazy, awkward and unusual sounds you get by combining all of that together. And if you do get to like that, you've met Eric Johnson! He's my man! Check him out!

EDIT: Try to analyze songs you like to play this way. See if you can understand what links the chords and melodies and try to figure out why it sounds so good to you.

Toronado wrote:
Thanks a million if you could get to these. It can be hard when you don't have someone whom you can ask these types of questions to.

Have a good one!!


I hope I made some of the things a bit clearer. Please, don’t hesitate to ask!

Goran

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Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 3:55 pm
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Thanks again Goran, that was a very lengthy post just to help clarify something for one person. I hope others got something out of it, aswell


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Hi guys! I didn't forget about you! After some thinking I have decided to slow down a bit. This is after all everything new to you, and considering how much we did and mentioned here in just a couple of months, and knowing that "formal teachers" need a lot of time to get to where we are now, I don't want to rush you and just throw new stuff at you without letting you digest what we did so far. You wouldn't believe how far we got anyway! So, believe me, let's slow down a bit, or we'll be out of theory. :D :) :shock: 8) :lol: :P :oops: :wink: :twisted: :evil:
More to come for sure!!!
If any questions about the "old" stuff, please ask!

Oh, yeah! BUMP!!!

To be continued...

Goran

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