Federal Agents raid Gibson Guitars

cvilleira · **Posted:** Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:41 am

BigJay wrote:

Ceri wrote:

Gentlemen, take a stroll around your local lumber yard. If it's anything like mine you will find C.I.T.E.S. certificates and statements conspicuously displayed, various impressive looking ink stamps on the end-grain of imported timber and all manner of other things.

So can I prove that the piece of Iroko I bought from the off-cuts corner comes from a renewably managed source? Can I heck.

I recently bought some acoustic guitar sides and backs from a respected tonewood supplier. I was told they are sycamore grown in my own country. Are they? How do I know? Can my supplier always be sure either?

Short of going and watching the trees felled it's amazingly hard to be stand-up-in-court certain on this stuff. Interestingly, I recently read that this is exactly how Bob Taylor does indeed source his Koa. Now there's dedication!

Cheers - C

Ceri...modern inventory management platforms provide amazing levels of detail regarding supply chain sourcing, including signatory certifications regarding policy and regulatory compliance. There is a chain of data that can be followed back to previous owners, distributors, resellers, etc.

.

You have to be kidding! Have you ever been in any of these third world countries and seen what you can buy? What documentation? This stuff comes into the market place and then gets sold to some dude with connections that then sells to and importer that also has connection and can produce his own paper work.

Theres guys in the Amazon cutting rare wood and earning a dollar a day. Somewhere along the line it ends up in the hands of someone who can pass certificates along saying it pre-ban wood or come from a controlled farmed area for sale.

bluesguitar65 · **Joined:** Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:56 am **Posts:** 1277

So the owners of Gibson guitars who have registered their guitars will be informed that they will have to give up thier guitars to the authorities becuase it may have illegal woods? Man, if you happen to collect gibson instruments that would be one costly consequence. That does not sound right at all. Well, so much for registering your guitars.

YZFJOE · **Posted:** Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:58 am

bluesguitar65 wrote:

So the owners of Gibson guitars who have registered their guitars will be informed that they will have to give up thier guitars to the authorities becuase it may have illegal woods? Man, if you happen to collect gibson instruments that would be one costly consequence. That does not sound right at all. Well, so much for registering your guitars.

Good luck with that! I recently purchased, and registered, a Les Paul with the Ebony in question. Like my firearms, they'll only get it when they pry it from my cold dead hands. They're not taking anything from me or anyone else without due process.

Twelvebar · **Posted:** Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:08 am

I think the crux of the issue here is this:

The Article wrote:

There are accusations the company has been illegally harvesting a type of wood from Madagascar, sending it to Germany and then importing it to the United States.

I would suggest that the government believes Gibson was trying to do an end run. By buying and moving wood through a third country, and trying to pull a fast one.

if that is the case, and given the recent anti-corporate sentiment caused by how companies, in general,used their massive bailouts to finance executive bonuses, I wouldn't be too surprised to see Gibson get hammered. Green issues make good copy. Prosecutors can look like they care about the environment, while at the same time make it look like they aren't in the pocket of big business.

Gibson could end up being an 'example' here. after all, it's a niche company. it may be iconic to musicians, but no one else cares about them.

Troublecall · **Posted:** Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:16 am

The next door neighbor of one of my friends works in Gibson's custom shop. Talked to him last night and he said that there were 40 - 50 Federal agents that came in.

But the strange thing to me is - he said that they did not come anywhere near his shop, although they took wood from other areas. You would think that the Custom shop would be the place that the rosewood and ebony would be used.

Curiouser and curiouser, said Alice.

bluesguitar65 · **Joined:** Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:56 am **Posts:** 1277

BigJay wrote:

bluesguitar65 wrote:

So the owners of Gibson guitars who have registered their guitars will be informed that they will have to give up thier guitars to the authorities becuase it may have illegal woods? Man, if you happen to collect gibson instruments that would be one costly consequence. That does not sound right at all. Well, so much for registering your guitars.

Hence the potential for a class action lawsuit against Gibson by a group of unhappy former Gibson owners.

I'll add that Im speculating here. Gibson hasnt been charged with any wrongdoing that we are aware of yet. Further, they have not been convicted of anything yet. So, theres no need to hire a lawyer yet or bury your guitar. There is not reason to ship your bong to your girlfriends house because youre afraid Federal agents are about to pound on your door.

If Gibson is found guilty of this, and if the authorities decide to pursue the matter down to consumers who may have bought such guitars, it likely Gibson will issue a recall/product replacement of some sort as part of a plea agreement with the plaintiff class.

A recall and "product replacement" in that magnitude will surely mean the down fall of Gibson...I really doubt that Gibson will survive and maybe forced to close down when all is settled. It will be an end of an era as we know it.

bluesguitar65 · **Joined:** Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:56 am **Posts:** 1277

BigJay wrote:

bluesguitar65 wrote:

BigJay wrote:

bluesguitar65 wrote:

So the owners of Gibson guitars who have registered their guitars will be informed that they will have to give up thier guitars to the authorities becuase it may have illegal woods? Man, if you happen to collect gibson instruments that would be one costly consequence. That does not sound right at all. Well, so much for registering your guitars.

Hence the potential for a class action lawsuit against Gibson by a group of unhappy former Gibson owners.

I'll add that Im speculating here. Gibson hasnt been charged with any wrongdoing that we are aware of yet. Further, they have not been convicted of anything yet. So, theres no need to hire a lawyer yet or bury your guitar. There is not reason to ship your bong to your girlfriends house because youre afraid Federal agents are about to pound on your door.

If Gibson is found guilty of this, and if the authorities decide to pursue the matter down to consumers who may have bought such guitars, it likely Gibson will issue a recall/product replacement of some sort as part of a plea agreement with the plaintiff class.

A recall and "product replacement" in that magnitude will surely mean the down fall of Gibson...I really doubt that Gibson will survive and maybe forced to close down when all is settled. It will be an end of an era as we know it.

You are making some pretty steep assumptions about how many guitars they might have to replace. It might only be a few thousand guitars. In fact, they might not have to replace the entire guitar. Maybe just the neck or maybe just the fingerboard. We dont know.

We don't know how many guitars that maybe effected, and we don't know how long Gibson has been dealing with the supplier(s) that are involved, but even if the thousands, that is still profit lost, not to mention the labor and replacements to be performed at no charge? Gibson will not be making money here, so where are they getting the money to pay for the labor and the replacement for "thousands" of guitars effected? It may be more as Gibson maybe getting illegal wood unknowingly from supplier(s) involved for years. Anything is possible.

YZFJOE · **Posted:** Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:25 pm

I don't think in any likelyhood that Gibson will be required to recall any of the guitars in question. Stop and think about this...If the government were to force a recall to replace guitars that were produced with illegal wood, they are in effect wasting more wood in contradiction to the stated goals of the conservation/management programs. Now, I would hope our government isn't actually that stupid, but at the same time $400.00 hammers and other acts of gross incompetence come to mind.

YZFJOE · **Posted:** Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:31 pm

BigJay wrote:

YZFJOE wrote:

I don't think in any likelyhood that Gibson will be required to recall any of the guitars in question. Stop and think about this...If the government were to force a recall to replace guitars that were produced with illegal wood, they are in effect wasting more wood in contradiction to the stated goals of the conservation/management programs. Now, I would hope our government isn't actually that stupid, but at the same time $400.00 hammers and other acts of gross incompetence come to mind.

The Government wouldnt force the recall. But if the Government attempts to collect the guitars containing illegal wood from Gibson customers, the customers may file a lawsuit against Gibson. If that happens, Gibson may offer to fix the problem....replace the guitars or fix the ones that contain illegal wood. The most efficient way to organize that would be a recall. This is very common practice.

Again, this is all speculation. Its just a likely nothing will come of any of it.

I think the only thing that will happen is a large fine levied on Gibson. Large enough to make any profit from any illegal wood disappear and make anyone contemplating the use of such wood realize that it just is not worth the risk.

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