I'm sorry to put a cloud over your BBQ this Veterans Day, but:

Does any one else find it suspect that the worlds most powerful country
can't beat a weak, corrupt, factionalized country, in 6 years?

Is regime change in Iraq so important to you that you are willing to spend
3 billion a day in borrowed money, to bring it about?

Do you wonder why we have invested so much in treasure and blood in
a country whose only export is heroin? Afghanistan, that is.

Does it make sense to reduce a country to rubble, and expect it's civilians
to love us?

If we are able to 'liberate' Iraq, is there any guarantee our oil companies will market their product to US?

Before you accuse me of being a liberal, understand, I am everything but.

Let the beat-down begin........

Originally posted by Taurus

1. The US is not trying to beat an entire country, they are trying to bring down the Taliban and Al Qaeda regimes. They are never in one place, they are very well disguised and organized, and have developed so much fear into the civilians there that they have difficulty believing the US can win. Also, this argument has been going on for a while, last year it was 5 years, the year before that 4 years. I expect and hope my government will have proper judgment and end the war at the proper time (When it comes)

2. 3 billion a day is just a rough figure thrown out there by the news, all expenditures by the Armed forces are classified. My guess is the actual amount spent is considerably less than that number. Plus the war stimulates the economy in the form of government contracts to Lockheed Martin, Hummer (GM),etc. to build the supplies the military needs.

3. The government has hidden so much it is hard to get a true estimate of GDP, natural resources, etc. There is oil under Afghanistan, how much is not certain.

4. Nope, and even if we didn't no country loves when an army just marches in and fights a war. That being said, the military tries its hardest to have the smallest impact as possible with surgical strikes and similar strategies.

5. There's a good question that I cannot answer. I'm sure at this point the government has realized that no matter what the outcome, there will be a considerable deficit (On top of the one we already have). I suspect there logic is if we're going to come out will a deficit, we should at least come out with peace.

This being said, I strongly oppose any and all wars, for nothing can be won out of human or any bloodshed. If my country does go to war, I feel obligated to support them, otherwise I'm implying that the government is sending armed forces over there to fight and sometimes die for no good reason. I respect your opinion and do not disagree, though some of your claims are somewhat overstated and politicized, they do have merit. Anyways, I gotta get back to my BBQ, please don't bring politics back onto the forum, politics make me give long boring replies that nobody will feel obligated to read >__________>

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I traded my car in for a microphone.

Taurus, seems like a thoughtful post, everyone in the world that is not an American should thank God that I wasn't in the White House on 9/11/01, nothing personal no disrespect intended its just to protect my family, loved ones and country I argue in favor of and even encourage the excessive use of gun powder and nuclear fission.

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you can save the world with your guitar one love song at a time it's just better, more fun, easier with a fender solid body electric guitar or electric bass guitar.

Mate the most powerful country in history couldnt beat Afghanistan. Were there because munitions/weapons suppliers make money out of war, as do banks. Does anyone else here find it suspect that everytime theres a war countries are plunged into reccession? Its because the usually stable divide of rich and poor has been stressed. The rich are taking from the poor in greed and consequently destabilizing economies everywhere. Never mind having a good outpost with which to set up a strong military presence to protect our future oilfields against said strongest power ever, Russia.

War, what is it good for?
A fat cat with a couple of bullet making factories.

Doesnt quite have the same ring to it as 'absolutely nothing' does it.

If you really think our invasion and imposing of our belief is going to bring peace to the middle east in the next couple of hundred years your mistaken. All you have to do is look to nothern Ireland for proof. A war that lasted a good century or so over a patch of land and some misguided belief that our way is right.

I dunno what areas any of you live in is like but let me put this to you.
In Bagdad a woman could walk quite safely down any street, with little fear of crime, at pretty much any time of the day as long as she adhered to her religeon.
In england I a 16 stone muscular construction worker cant walk down a fair few streets at 2pm.

Who has it wrong?

Were constantly given this distorted view of oppression without seeing our own oppression at the hands of world banks, never mind our elected spokesperson for our business run dictatorships. How are we going to give freedom to anyone when we dont have it ourselves.

I'm fully behind our soldiers, I wish every one of them would come back safely. I cant believe that their out there for peace though (except their personal desire to bring peace to the world).,

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No no and no

Cheers to the ninja!

It is because since the 50's and 60's the politicians have been more involve and require our military to fight a politically correct war. A war can never be won unless those you are fighting as well as others in the population of the area in which you are fighting want it to stop. That requires heartless destruction and forces the area population to the reality to stop the enemy from within for its own good.

In WWII we did not only bomb bases we bombed the civilian population we destroyed the peoples will to allow war to continue. The fire bombs in Europe and Atomic bombs in Japan were aimed at the population. Scorched Earth wins wars and leads to years of never wanting it again ( PEACE ) otherwise you get Korea and its line Viet Nam, and what we have now.

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Thomas Jefferson

No comment...this is not the place for this discussion. I do have some pretty radical thoughts about everything that has happened since 9/11/2001; however, I just try not to voice them on the net (but sometimes they slip).

RK

** slowly backs out of thread befre saying something that will really get the bleeding heart POS Liberals upset **

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I got a black cat bone, I got a mojo too.

I am just here to chat with my Fender brother abour Fenders, amps and music!!!!! [/quote]

Capo- Thank you for your thoughtful answer.

SolidBody- Of course, but why deplete your resources, taking down the
wrong people? Unless your oil is under theiir sand.
Niki- Right on.

Cvilliera-Point taken, but it didnt work in Viet Nam. Unless of course
the reason for the war was the war itself, which is what I
suspect. 15 years direct and indirect involvement?

Thank you all. No more cynicism for the rest of the day.....

I enjoyed reading your post. BTW your goverment paid 1.8mill a month for use of our forces during desert storm 2.

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No no and no

Taurus these types of post break things up from time to time and make a good read. Its nice to see what others think on differing topics as long as they don't take it personal and get upset.
PS. Taurus not a bad brand either I own two of them and the Model 82 is my favorite .38

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Thomas Jefferson

Who's a liberal? I'll guarantee I'm far more right wing than pretty much anyone, aside from certain German premiers from the 1st 3rd of the 20th century. Infact I'm so rightwing I moved to Margret Thatchers hometown and actively campaign to get her a statue put up.

Knowing that your being taken for a mug doesnt make you leftwing. Its that kind of thinking thats holding you back as a person my friend. Learn to think for yourself, stop doing and thinking what your self serving leaders (whichever party their from) tell you and open your mind.

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No no and no

There is so much more to this problem than most of us comprehend. To walk away now would equate to burying our heads in the sand and hoping another 9/11 or worse never occurs.

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"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives." Blazing Saddles...

Now that I completely agree with. Now that we poked the waspnest we have to deal with the consequences. We cant leave those people out there at the hand of their goverments, now that we've tried to usurp them. We have shown aggression and have to seize control. Theres no way were going to have any friends in that area of the world so lets just get on with the carpet bombing and bring it to a close.

How did we ever become so arrogant to think we could bring peace to a area of the world that has never in history known it? These people have been fighting for 9000 odd years now.

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No no and no