I'm trying to figure out the CAGED system, which is about helping to improvise. The idea is playing scales over chords, but I just don't get it. Can you give me an example of how to play scales over chords in the context of improvisation?

Thanks!

It's just not playing a scale over a chord progression, it's more like you're making (singing) lyrics to a melody. For the life of me I don't understand how the CAGED system got so popular.

I read posts, and get emails from guitarists who can't grasp the concept of improvising. As I posted before, first one must know some fretboard theory, so that they you where you are on the fretboard.

And learn various scale patten(s), like the basic pentatonic scale. Since the pentatonic scale is movable in all keys, and if you know the key of a song you will be able (well should be able) to learn the guitar leads, this knowledge gives a starting point.

So, how do I learn to improvise (solo), learn your favorite guitarist solo in a song, than use the riff/licks you learn when you play. Than learn more songs. I still remember and play the first B.B. King lick I learned.

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Tony Houston

Yep, I listen to a song, pick out which key it's played in, and then I solo over it with the correct scale (usually the Pentatonic or Major scale).
I can usually pick out the key fairly quickly because I'm progressively getting better at knowing my way around the fingerboard. Hopefully I can really master it in the near future.

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"If it's planned, it's boring." - Freddie Mercury

Thanks! I have my suspicions about the CAGED system too. What I am learning is that it is a variation of the scale pattern approach taught in other scale books, it's just that C corresponds to third position, etc. I think I like the positional approach better. I really don't understand how CAGED connects to chord progressions.

Can you give me some tips for identifying the key something is being played in? I don't understand that either and I am currently using simple trial and error to do it.

What I do to find what key a song is in, without even knowing any chords in the song, is I just find the note that "sounds right" for the song. If a particular note sounds good throughout the whole song, then it's probably safe to say that that's the key the song is in.

That's how I think of it, though, but I don't have much or any proof to back that up.



What do you guys think about that way of finding the key for a song?

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"If it's planned, it's boring." - Freddie Mercury

I'm essentially self-taught, after I learned basic fretboard theory, i.e. what the name of strings were, open chord positions, and than the barre chord positions.

I also learned the major scale formula 'W W H W W W H', than I learned that most blues & rock songs were based on the I-IV-V chord progression using the major scale formula.

Actually I learned all this by reading Guitar Player magazine .

But, the most important fretboard theory I learned was that the pentatonic scale was movable in ALL keys. I learned this in Guitar Player too.

There was lesson where the author tabbed out George Harrison's solo to 'Let It Be'. He explained Harrison's approach to the solo, and the riffs he used.

The author also talked about recording a song you wanted to learn to cassette, this was back in the '73, when I first started learning to play, so you wouldn't ruin your records.

I started learning songs off of the Allman Brothers ‘Live at Fillmore’ and EC’s ‘Layla’, plus Rolling Stones. Since I knew my barre chord positions, I would 'hunt & peck'' out the key of the songs. Here at first I remember concentrating on the first note played by the bass player, if it was at 3rd fret, 6th string, I knew it was ‘G’, at the 5th fret, 6th string it was in ‘A’, etc.

I also learned that some blues songs start on the ‘V’ and a few blues songs like ‘Key to the Highway’ are I-V-IV.

Ok, I also knew that the pentatonic scale was movable in all keys, if I thought the song was in ‘G’, like ‘Stormy Monday’, I would try the ‘G’ pentatonic scale at the 3rd fret, if it ‘fit’, than I would start learning the chord progression, and than learn the solos. Again, I would have a the song on cassette, so that I could FF & RW.

Learning solos will give you a lick/riff vocabulary. This is very important IMO, this will give you the tools to improvise, and maybe come up with your own licks.

I would spend hours learning songs, and my ‘ear’ became better, now if I’m watching a football game, I find a key a song used in a commercial in about 5 or 10 seconds.

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Tony Houston

Hi Rudy: I think there's a little insight I can help you with - a moment of dawning light that comes to us all.

Sticking to blues (cos it's easy to understand), you are aware that most blues songs take the form of a I - IV - V chord progression, as thuston mentioned (above)? In other words, if the first (home) chord is E, the second will be A and the third B. Yep?

If it's a minor key blues then (for the sake of argument) all of those chords can be minor ones. So once you know the minor pentatonic scale for each chord you can chose notes from each of those scales for your "improvisation" while that chord is playing.

However, the moment of insight that I mentioned is that alternatively you can also play notes only from the E minor pentatonic scale throughout the number: they still sound good even when the song moves into A and B. Strange but true.

And a further insight is that notes from the minor pentatonic scale also sound good over the major version of the chord. (BB King, this way...) Try playing a blues made from E major, A major and B major - but solo over the top with notes from the E minor pentatonic scale. It gives a nice aggressive tension to the whole thing.

I never really dealt with the CAGED system, but if I understand it, it's just a simple method of discovering where the pentatonic notes are to be found in a given key. (But I may have that wrong: happy to be corrected by someone who knows it better.)

If you are not already up to speed on pentatonic positions then another handy tool is this webpage:

http://www.modemaster.com/

That'll show you where to find the notes for any given scale, and is particularly useful for penetrating the mysteries of modes. It won't explain the theory for you, but you'll soon start seeing the shapes the different note patterns make on the fingerboard.

...And once you have all that under your belt the next task is to try to forget it. Most of us are delighted at our discovery of the "pentatonic box" - and then spend ages trying to climb out of it again. Because it does have its severe musical limitations...

Good luck - C

Thank you for the great answers!

Ceri:

Your answer is a real "Aha!" and "Eureka!" moment for me. You explained it in a way I can completely relate to. The essential piece of information that made it clear is your explanation of how we can play in the scale that is the I chord of a blues (E if the I chord is E). I really appreciate it

this is a somewhat watered-down briefing, but the CAGED system is actually a somewhat simple concept.

you probably know this, but "CAGED" is an acronym spelled out by the names of moveable chord shapes...henceforth C is for C chord, A is for A chord, etc.

like i said these are 5 different moveable open chord shapes which can be played anywhere on the neck. just recall the "cowboy" chords that you learned in the beginning of time. so for example, if you play a open G shape at 3rd fret bottom string , its obviously a G. if you play a G chape at the 7th fret bottom string, its now a B. likewise for the other shapes.

the point is you can use these shapes to pick and choose notes in your improv. so if a B is being played in the song, you would likely pick notes from the B chord, and CAGED says you can do this with a B chord in any of the 5 possible locations defined by the system. have fun with it, its supposed to be a flexible concept. you can use whichever shapes you like

i find this system fits best with jazz for slightly obvious reasons, especially if you are a fluid player and can comfortably cruise around the neck hitting notes w/o thinking about it.

as you can see, effective use of CAGED requires you to know the chords in the song, and to remember where all the shapes are located for each chord name.

Oh, well that's great: glad to be of service.

Gotta say though, I had real misgivings about mentioning that stuff. Guys maundering on endlessly in a single minor pentatonic scale over the top of whatever tune is being played has got to be one of the most tiresome cliches of rock.

We all have to go through that phase - just try and get out the other side as soon as you can! There's a reason the phrase "beyond the pentatonic" was coined...

Cheers man - C

PS And thanks to msvolpe for enlightening me on CAGED...

I just don't go along with that, here you 'think' about playing, instead of playing.

I have over 300 songs on Soundclick http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=471052 where either I've record a lead guitar to backing tracks, and/or recorded an original song. I don't play in a 'box'.

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Tony Houston

thouston:

As a practical matter, I don't see any difference between CAGED and the, to my knowledge unnamed, method of using the 5 positions on the fretboard demonstrated in other teachings. In the other teachings I'm referring to there is:
Position 3, which for C major scale includes 0th thru fourth fret, then position 4 which starts about the second fret and continues to the fifth or sixth. And so on up the fretboard for fifth, first, and second positions. At the 12th fret Position 3 repeats, then position 4, etc. up to highest frets.

Changing keys with this system is identical to the way it's described with CAGED. For example, D major scale starts at the second fret.

It seems like two articulations of the same method.

thouston:

As a practical matter, I don't see any difference between CAGED and the, to my knowledge unnamed, method of using the 5 positions on the fretboard demonstrated in other teachings. In the other teachings I'm referring to there is:
Position 3, which for C major scale includes 0th thru fourth fret, then position 4 which starts about the second fret and continues to the fifth or sixth. And so on up the fretboard for fifth, first, and second positions. At the 12th fret Position 3 repeats, then position 4, etc. up to highest frets.

Changing keys with this system is identical to the way it's described with CAGED. For example, D major scale starts at the second fret.

It seems like two articulations of the same method.

Ahh, ok, what ever works for you.

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Tony Houston

thouston:

It took me a while to figure that out, though. It's not at all obvious from the explanation I got in the CAGED book I've been using.