Hehe - I think I sympathise with this post beyond all others! It's a chewy thread for sure, isn't it?

Honestly, I could read this all through three times in a row. What a lot of fascinating posts - how refreshing!

So much to agree with. Please note I said that - and I'll comment on something I don't entirely agree with, just to move things around:

Actually, it's been my consistent experience that it is only a good workman that can tell the difference. I've noticed that in many areas of life.

I think it's perhaps not merely a banal rhetorical point. Almost every excellent player mentioned on this thread pays exhaustively close attention to his own equipment, not withstanding that - given his fine "intent" - he could sound good on almost anything. Nearly every one of them clearly feels his intent can be better realised with certain tools rather than others.

Which has been my own very modest experience too.

Plenty of examples ready to support that: which of course will be anecdotal evidence - but what can you do...?

Cheers - C

PS

Big Jay: I'm one of the leading all time non-joiners. If everyone decided to invent a party or religion in my own honor I'd instantly leave it in paroxysms of doubt... St Francis, Van Morrison and Ceri: some of the most awkward buggers in history!

As was said later 'a good workman will maintain his tools to a high standard'. I'll photograph my apprentice trowel one day.
Whether a bad workman can tell the difference is not relevant to the saying. It's more to do with excuses as to why they cant acomplish a task rather than how they look after their gear.
I'm sure you and many others already knew that i just wanted to bring what i initially said into context.

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For sure.

But I bet you've had times when you've had trouble with a piece of equipment (musical or otherwise), and that's always the moment some nincompoop trots out that line, "a bad workman blames his tools", with a smug look on their face like they said something amazingly clever.

Truth is, if you were a bad workman you wouldn't notice whether the tool was working right or not.

I've never wiped that smug look off someone's face - but I've sure itched to...!

Cheers - C

Deep, thought provoking ideas and theories on the art and science of tone... for sure.

"Intent"... I really like it! And I believe, that to sum up an attempt in achieving tone, (in one word) you have nailed it... Intent!

I've always thought "Tone" starts in the heart or soul of the player and comes out through the sweaty hours of practice and determination.. to bring your soul through your fingers...

The gear is just a vehicle for that journey. "Intent" better sums all that up... cool...

Of course, that's not going to change MY idiocracy. I'm still going to have to purchase 27 guitars, 19 amps and 34 effects pedals, etc etc because it makes me feel something special... and it beats collecting guns or stamps or coins or giving all of my money to strippers...

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I love the smell of hot vacuum tubes in the morning...

Yeah you always get some clown that winds you up at the wrong time. I can usually silence them with a arched eyebrow stare. Failing that a torrent of verbal abuse plenty of arm waving and threats to perform a bit of bad workmanship on their visage usually keeps em away from me.
No i dont own a sense of humour when at work.

I see what you mean about a bad workman no knowing the difference. Its not just limited to them though. I recently bought this nut slotting tool for an upcoming project.
http://www.monteallums.com/enut_tuning.html#nst.
I simply would not benefit from a £70 set of files to do the job. I doubt i'll feel too much difference. I'm simply not skilled enough.
My apprentice trowel was a £4 b&q special. Much like my old mexican strat it commands greater respect than my £40 tyzack. Its pretty much useless now due to metal fatigue and is surpassed in every way by the tyzack except for time and wear.

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Ninja, we're in agreement as usual.

I don't think it's a frivolous point, however. We often see certain logical non sequiturs creeping into discussions like this and it is good to be clear.

For instance, I certainly have to concentrate to be sure I'm correctly understanding some of the sophisticated points being made on this thread: someone who's new to this stuff could be forgiven for supposing he's being told that the instrument is of no consequence at all, since it's all down to the player's Zen-like abilities and intent.

(Not particularly on this thread) Mr cvilleira often feels the differences between gear are overly disregarded, and I sometimes find myself agreeing with him. Were it really true that the individual characteristics of guitars don't matter we would see little attention paid to them by top players. The opposite is manifestly the case.

Just because Mr Clapton et al can plainly sound very good on crappy gear doesn't mean the nature of the instrument in their hands is of no significance.

***

I find SlapChop's original post very interesting and persuasive. Something that should follows from it, which I think is yet to be fully developed on this thread, is a way of discussing an individual player's "intent".

We might say that the intent is demonstrated by the playing that flows from it. Yet a moment's thought shows the faultiness of that. Very obviously, someone's playing may fall far short of the intent in their head. So how can we consider their intent - as distinct from their playing - given that we can't get inside their mind to take a look at it?

Questions questions...

Cheers - C

Indeed! Which may go part way to explaining the original question, of why we spend so much time discussing the tiny little issues we can access...!

Anecdotage time. On intent: unlike some I always rather liked Zeppelin's album Physical Graffiti. But I've read Jimmy Page being very dismissive of his amp tone on those tracks - whatever his intent, he plainly didn't achieve it.

On the other hand, there's a version of Thank You on the No Quarter album where the amp almost sounds to me like it has a damaged speaker cone. (I'm sure it hasn't, but that gives a hint of the tone.) If some kid produced that sound we might question what's happening and suggest he check his equipment. Certainly Page has been at least satisfied enough with it to issue the recording - whether it fully expressed his intent or not.

I like that track very much - but whether I'm liking what he meant me to hear or no... who can say?

Curiouser and curiouser.

Cheers - C

[quote="SlapChop"]Have you noticed that guitar forums all generate the same endless, unresolved debates over and over again?

Minus the airy persiflage of my goodfellows out there, all the 'intent' in world would not cause the Sound From Heaven to issue from David Gilmour using a $50 acoustic purchased at a GC sale-off!

You want 'intent'......Andres Segovia....THAT's 'intent'...short and sweet.

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"Another day in paradise!"

Prize for the first use of the word "persiflage" on the Forum in 2009. Respect!

- C

Thanks, Ceri. I do believe I've employed it else-where however, you and I unfortunately do not get to read everything we produce.

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"Another day in paradise!"

The balance to CV's concern is that whilst on the quest for tone you cant ignore gear. For one reason or another we favour certain gutairs. Its pretty much 50/50 between sound and feel. You pick instruments because of one of those factors. So in some way you (hopefully) begin your journey when you pick your guitar. I add not the guitar you learn on, the one you want.

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For an artist such as Beck, the technology forms part of the palate from which he chooses his colors. With or without it, he retains his gifts.

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"Another day in paradise!"