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Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:35 pm
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cvilleira wrote:
Sadly people looking to get things at a deal on these sites tend to get taken.


That is very true.

One use for the fakes: to smash up ala Blackmore or Malmsteen at the end of a hot show!!

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Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:38 pm
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orvilleowner wrote:
cvilleira wrote:
Sadly people looking to get things at a deal on these sites tend to get taken.

That is very true.One use for the fakes: to smash up ala Blackmore or Malmsteen at the end of a hot show!!


Remembering The Who: I worked so hard to earn my guitars, it used to kill me to watch them destroy their gear. :?

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Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:46 pm
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zzdoc wrote:
Remembering The Who: I worked so hard to earn my guitars, it used to kill me to watch them destroy their gear. :?


Right, Pete destroyed valuable guitars. :(

Blackmore smashed up cheap-o copies! :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Fake Fender guitars
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:08 am
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iandestreza wrote:
Why is our government letting other countries sell us fake/replica brand name guitars? Somebody should take care of this issue its been goin on for many years now. Solutions people.... 8)



First, my question is why do you feel this is the governments job/responsibility to deal with this issue? If this issue is that much of a concern for you, are you unable to go to a Fender authorized dealer to by a genuine Fender product in the first place? Do you not have a computer with an internet connection to simply order a genuine Fender (or Gibson or other) from a reputable dealer online such as Guitar Center, Musician's Friend, AMS or others? If the government is supposed to block or ban "import" guitars then to be fair, they'd have to do it with everyone...including Fender and Gibson who both make guitars in other countries other than the USA...and I'm sorry there friend but there's a lot of us Made in Mexico Standard owners who would take issue with that.

Secondly you seem to be lumping "fakes" and "replicas" all into the same category and they are two -very- distinct things. Replicas or knock offs/clones/copies as they're commonly referred to are perfectly legal and as others have already stated do in fact have a number of benefits over "real" brand names. I have an old Lotus Strat copy and a Memphis Les Paul copy both of which are from the 80's. In the case of my Memphis for example, it was my first "real" electric guitar...it was $100 new at a local music store back around '84. At that time I could NOT have gotten a Les Paul (either Gibson or Epiphone) for that same price and there was no way I would have been able to afford a real Les Paul when I was 17. Is my Memphis of the same quality as a Gibby or Epi? Certainly NOT! It was a cheap knock off, but it was good enough to really get me into playing guitar so that later I could buy something like a genuine Fender. By your statements here, you're saying that I shouldn't have been entitled to that guitar because it was a "fake/replica" and the government should have banned it...do you even have the slightest clue how many of us started out on instruments such as this???

On top of that, I also have to say that personally I was recently looking at a Rickenbacker 12 string copy on Ebay. Now I'm sure the quality of these instruments aren't going to compare with that of a "real" Rick, but between the basic instrument and my abilities at mods and repairs and such, for the money I'm sure I could turn this into something rather decent. In this case it wouldn't be my main instrument and I don't really need a Rick 12 string (technically I have 22 guitars so I don't really even need another guitar) but it would be a fun instrument to have and work on and play around with...so why fork out $1000 to $2000 or more for a real Rick when all I want is a "novelty" to begin with? That just does NOT make sense...

In addition it also must be noted that a lot of us do in fact build our own instruments from parts (search this forum for the term "partscaster")...essentially we make our own knock offs...I'm in the middle of building 4 myself. In most cases...or at least in my own case, it's not a matter of selling these things as much as we do it for our own pleasure and enjoyment. In my case, when I spend that many hours sanding, polishing, buffing, etc., I'm certainly NOT going to sell it to someone else! Most folks couldn't afford my labor costs anyways! LOL!!! In many of these cases, these instruments are as good if not considerably better than the genuine articles. By your implication though, this too should be "illegal"...if you're going to have the government ban imported knock offs, than again to be fair you have to have them ban -ALL- knock offs and that would have to include people who sell parts and people who build their own as well.

"Fakes" are of course a very different issue. Trying to sell a cheap knock off as a genuine article is of course wrong. That said, this isn't limited to imports or countries over-seas. In fact a great many of those fakes are done by private individuals here in the US! Us wonderful "Western capitalistic pigs" who are only out to make a fast buck. Look around on these forums...there's a few threads here pertaining to this exact issue. If you look closely most of the people who bought guitars of this nature and got burned, didn't buy them from some obscure dealer in China, they bought them off of private individuals on Ebay or Craigslist. More over in most of these cases the buyer was presented with ample opportunity to investigate the instrument...ask for more pictures, ask for serial numbers and check if they're legit, etc., etc.. Most of the people who get burned are simply greedy little buggers with no common sense...they see, they want, they buy. Now tell me here...please enlighten me...how exactly is it that the government is supposed to protect us US citizens from our own greed and stupidity? If a person is too stupid, too lazy or too intent on getting something for nothing that they can't even be bothered to check a serial number, how is that the government's responsibility???

Now in this specific case, there -are- laws...copyright laws, patent laws, trademark laws, etc.. Having laws in place and people obeying those laws are also two -very- different things. There are laws against the use of certain prohibited "substances" and there are laws against under-aged drinking...do you really think these laws stop people from involving themselves in these activities? Are you -that- naive?? In the case of the fake guitar issue, exactly what is the government supposed to do...send a legal representative to your house so that if you try to buy a fake guitar online for cheap, he can slap your wrists with a ruler and say "Don't be a wanker!"? There is a very old adage which states "buyer beware" and it's not the government's job to make sure that you're an informed consumer. No one forces you to click on that "Buy It Now" button on an Ebay auction. Again here, if you can't be bothered to make sure your purchase is authentic, it's not the government's responsibility to protect you from your own freakin' ignorance, laziness and greed. If you can't make an intelligent decision in regards to a purchase and be adult enough to accept responsibility for your own actions, that's no body's fault but -your own-!

I don't know if this is actually your specific case or not but it's been my experience that people who make comments such as you've made in this thread are simply people who got burned by their own ignorance or their own greed and are looking to blame everyone and everything but themselves. More over, at the risk of sounding rude you comments are a bit naive in regards to all of this and you seem to have a tendency to attack people when they disagree with you or are simply trying to educate you. Either way, it's not the government's job to protect each and every individual from their own ignorance and there -IS- a very big difference between "fakes" and "replicas"...and replicas are perfectly acceptable and valid instruments in their own right for all the reasons stated and more.

Have a nice day.


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Post subject: Re: Fake Fender guitars
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:15 am
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[quote="lomitus"][quote="iandestreza"]

A well thougt out essay. :wink:

One of our contributors on another thread acknowledged that fact that a guitar he built was done so with a Warmoth neck carrying a Fender logo.(which Warmoth would never placed because it would violate their licensing agreement with Fender to produce necks with that headstock) The writer admits that he was burned on that transaction.

He commits to never representing this guitar as an original. The fact that he was able to acquire this neck in such fashion re-enforces the call for a knowledgable, informed, and vigilant community. Fended has also indicated its desire for us to keep them updated on any such encounters. It in the best interests of all that we police ourselves. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Fake Fender guitars
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:28 am
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lomitus wrote:
iandestreza wrote:
Why is our government letting other countries sell us fake/replica brand name guitars? Somebody should take care of this issue its been goin on for many years now. Solutions people.... 8)



First, my question is why do you feel this is the governments job/responsibility to deal with this issue?


To me, lomitus raises the crucial issue. This is not the responsibility of government. This is a free-market issue, plain and simple. I want less government interference in the marketplace, not more.

Remember, any government powerful enough to give you everything you want is also powerful enough to take away everything you have.

Caveat emptor, but be an informed consumer first and foremost.

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Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:38 am
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I recently found another fake decal cottage industry and submitted its web address to the powers that be. FMIC certainly do seem to dislike those forgers.

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Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:05 am
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Companies such as Fender and Gibson are big and powerful and take action to protect their designs whenever they can. In the '70s - '80s they were able to end fakery coming out of Japan because that country has a well developed legal culture within which to operate.

The problem with Chinese counterfeiting in all kinds of areas is that China has rather feeble legal institutions and no culture of respect for "intellectual property". It's a wild west type of environment, though things are gradually improving.

In fact, most of our governments are taking action. It is in the form of processes such as the GATT (General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade), which grind slowly and boringly through international negotiations.

The likes of Fender have little chance of successfully closing down counterfeiting operations till the Chinese government gets serious about the infrastructure within which to do it. Incentivising China through dull seeming institutions such as the GATT is the way to bring it about.

In the meantime, far as direct action is concerned I'd rather our governments devoted resources to areas such as the vast market in fake airliner parts. Much more scary!

Cheers - C


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Post subject: Re: Fake Fender guitars
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:07 am
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zzdoc wrote:
iandestreza wrote:
Why is our government letting other countries sell us fake/replica brand name guitars? Somebody should take care of this issue its been goin on for many years now. Solutions people.... 8)



If you come to this Forum, do so with an open, inquiring mind, patient, and prepared to contribute. Leave your issues elsewhere.

You are relatively new here and have yet to come to understand the depth and breadth of the world wide knowledge base you are tapping into. This is not a 'kiddie corner." It is a serious, information sharing venue with serious contributors, many of whom played their first Fender guitars half a century ago. There are experienced luthiers, electronics experts, experienced professional musicians, semi-professional, and hobbyists of all stripes.

You can't help but enjoy a positive growth experience herein. Everyone, no matter how well versed, comes away with something new, and grows.


Thanks for typing that for me Doc! I completely agree! :wink:

lomitus, well written as usual! :)


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Post subject: Re: Fake Fender guitars
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:26 am
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russianracehorse wrote:
lomitus wrote:
iandestreza wrote:
Why is our government letting other countries sell us fake/replica brand name guitars? Somebody should take care of this issue its been goin on for many years now. Solutions people.... 8)



First, my question is why do you feel this is the governments job/responsibility to deal with this issue?


To me, lomitus raises the crucial issue. This is not the responsibility of government. This is a free-market issue, plain and simple. I want less government interference in the marketplace, not more.

Remember, any government powerful enough to give you everything you want is also powerful enough to take away everything you have.

Caveat emptor, but be an informed consumer first and foremost.


This is another -very- good point! Ya know, I don't mean to be rude here, but honestly...people are stupid. They seem to think that the government is supposed to protect them from their own ignorance so they don't have to take responsibility for it. To me this whole issue is very analogous to people who cry that the government should ban internet porno so their kids can't see it. "Oh...little Johnny was looking at dirty pictures on the computer the other day...the government should do something about this!". My question is, where the hell were the freakin' parents while little Johnny was sitting there stroking off to those pictures of nekid women he downloaded??? Who gave the kid access to the computer and the internet in the first place??? The government????? Is it really the job of the government to whack little Johnny on the pee-pee because his folks couldn't be bothered to keep an eye on him? I don't think so! I once knew a lady who believed that the government should make cigarettes illegal so that she could quit smoking...like the folks at Marlboro came to her door once a week with a gun to force her to buy that next carton (he says as he sits here puffing away...). I was standing in line at a drug store not too long ago and there was an elderly woman in front of me checking out. As I was standing there I looked down and this woman had her purse open right in front of me not 12 inches from my hand as she was blathering on to the cashier about a coupon or rebate or something completely oblivious to her surroundings. I'm not kidding, this woman had -8- credit cards sitting there for all to see along with her driver's license and all of her personal ID. It wouldnt' have been anything at all for me to reach down and snag all of it. Now you -know- that when this woman does have this happen to her, she's going to scream bloody murder about identify theft and how everyone's always taking advantage of the elderly and "When is the government going to do something about this???"...even though it was her own damn fault!

It's not the government's duty or responsibility to control or regulate the stupidity of individuals. Even if it was feasible, let alone practical, it's up to the individual to take responsibility for their own actions. Unfortunately I think that's the -real- issue here...it's simply easier to blame the government and the folks who would commit fraud and everyone and everything else other than ourselves. It's just so much easier to sit here and whine and cry "I didn't know...somebody should do something!" instead of saying "Hey...I f__ked up". People have choices but it shouldn't be up to the government to make sure people make the right choices let alone apply a little common sense...if it were, those choices would go away in a heartbeat.

L8r


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Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:34 am
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I feel it is ultimately our own fault there are knock-offs. If nobody bought the $500 Rolex, there wouldn't be anybody selling them on the street corner. The only solution (as I see it) is don't buy anything you're unsure of. It is our own responsibility to make sure we know exactly what we are buying... Otherwise you pay the consequences. If your $150 Strat or your $500 Rolex breaks within a year, your out the money... It's not our governments fault, it's your own!


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Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:54 am
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Kind of like why doesn't the goverment do anything about drugs that come from other countries. There are Laws but you have to be relistic as to how much enforcment can stop.

Lopado­temakho­selakho­galeo­kranio­leipsano­drim­hypo­trimmato­silphio­karabo­melito­katakekhy­meno­kikhl­epi­kossypho­phatto­perister­alektryon­opto­kephallio­kigklo­peleio­lagōio­siraio­baphē­tragano­pterýgōn :shock:

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Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:56 am
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cvilleira wrote:
Lopado­temakho­selakho­galeo­kranio­leipsano­drim­hypo­trimmato­silphio­karabo­melito­katakekhy­meno­kikhl­epi­kossypho­phatto­perister­alektryon­opto­kephallio­kigklo­peleio­lagōio­siraio­baphē­tragano­pterýgōn :shock:


Gotta say, I think those lyrics need a little more work if you want 'em to be catchy...

:D - C


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Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:02 am
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Ceri wrote:
cvilleira wrote:
Lopado­temakho­selakho­galeo­kranio­leipsano­drim­hypo­trimmato­silphio­karabo­melito­katakekhy­meno­kikhl­epi­kossypho­phatto­perister­alektryon­opto­kephallio­kigklo­peleio­lagōio­siraio­baphē­tragano­pterýgōn :shock:


Gotta say, I think those lyrics need a little more work if you want 'em to be catchy...

:D - C


Oh good, you can translate for the rest of us!

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Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:12 am
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orvilleowner wrote:
Ceri wrote:
cvilleira wrote:
Lopado­temakho­selakho­galeo­kranio­leipsano­drim­hypo­trimmato­silphio­karabo­melito­katakekhy­meno­kikhl­epi­kossypho­phatto­perister­alektryon­opto­kephallio­kigklo­peleio­lagōio­siraio­baphē­tragano­pterýgōn :shock:


Gotta say, I think those lyrics need a little more work if you want 'em to be catchy...

:D - C


Oh good, you can translate for the rest of us!

Greek translation
λοπαδο­τεμαχο­σελαχο­γαλεο­κρανιο­λειψανο­δριμ­υπο­τριμματο­σιλφιο­καραβο­μελιτο­κατακεχυ­μενο­κιχλ­επι­κοσσυφο­φαττο­περιστερ­αλεκτρυον­οπτο­κεφαλλιο­κιγκλο­πελειο­λαγῳο­σιραιο­βαφη­τραγανο­πτερύγων

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