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Post subject: Fender Logo Experts Please
Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:40 pm
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Question for those of you who are in the know:

Has there EVER been a REAL Fender headstock Logo (decal) that sported MADE IN THE U.S.A. without the dots/periods? IE: MADE IN THE USA ... or are these all FAKES stupidly manufactured by decal people who just don't know any better?
I saw such a guitar with a "no dots" 'USA' logo on eBay and wondered IF there was a good possibility it was really a Squier that had been "fixed" & "up-graded" .... being sold under false advertising.

Thanks


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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:23 am
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All I can tell you is that there are a lot of counterfeit items being auctioned on fleabay...be careful...be wise....do the right thing. :wink:

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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:52 am
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It is pretty easy to manufacture decals yourself. If you don't know how to do it - then I am not going to be the one to tell. But the consequence is there's an awful lot of pirate decals out there - in fact, the wonder of it is that so many of them are fairly obviously wrong, especially from Chinese sources.

I'm one of the grumpy old men of the Forum on decals. We don't smile on piracy round here. But there's a lot of it about...

Cheers - C


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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:05 am
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Mike: Thanks for taking the time to reply. Yes, I am very aware of the China Scam and all that kind of crap..... unfortunately, it doesn't really answer my inquiry. However......

Here's another question to go along with the first:
I know some very early Teles; Broadcasters & Esquire models were 'Tele-less' and referred to as 'No-casters'..... BUT,

> Has any REAL Fender ever NOT been given a serial number?

The ONLY way I can imagine an authentic Fender guitar ending up without a number is when a 'number-stamped neck-plate' guitar somehow gets a new or different 'common' (no number) neck plate. The neck itself has no serial number with the logo as MOST Fenders do, front or back of the headstock.

Sadly, Fender's inconsistent "standards" over all these years have opened the door to forgery, confusion and doubt. Even genuine guitars can be taken as a possible fake and some "non-Fenders" thought to be the real thing. I'm sure that in certain 'Logo-fixed' cases, a high-quality Squier can easily be mistaken for an actual Fender, especially when a lot of guitarists consider top-end Squiers BETTER than low-end Fenders. A definite "grey-area" there.


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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:32 am
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Ceri: It appears that many of the newest Fender headstocks have a metallic Logo now that must be rather expensive to reproduce anything close to it accurately. Then again, a nice, SMOOTH shiny coat of poly-urethane over top of it has to be a difficult task as well, (w/out streaks &/or bubbles, OR passing out! :P ).

I'm sure the huge majority of fakers are amateurs and anyone who knows better can easily spot the tell-tale BS. IMHO, an 'expert' luthier wouldn't risk his reputation ..... besides, he'd know better and have ethics.

As a model railroader, I've made my own decals before, but having a high-resolution (very sharp edged) photo to work with is vital to a decent print. It seems to me you'd also need an expensive color laser printer. With that kind of investment, faking anybody's logos would NOT be very a cost-effective way of re-couping nor running an honest business, especially since such a 'fake-logo' market has GOT to be ridiculously small.

It seems the only 'fakery' has to do with the neck & logo. The body and other parts changed don't appear to carry much concern. What the heck, I have a Might-Might bridge w/ pop-in tremolo arm, DragonFire pick-ups mounted on a new pick-guard and Grover Auto-Lock tuners on my Strat. It may no longer be 100% Fender, but it certainly doesn't make it a 'fake' either.
HEY! If you put a different brand of strings on, technically it's no longer 100% Fender..... Eh? :roll:


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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:24 am
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Ah, why not: it's a while since we've done this topic...

Guitarman1117 wrote:
As a model railroader, I've made my own decals before, but having a high-resolution (very sharp edged) photo to work with is vital to a decent print. It seems to me you'd also need an expensive color laser printer. With that kind of investment, faking anybody's logos would NOT be very a cost-effective way of re-couping nor running an honest business, especially since such a 'fake-logo' market has GOT to be ridiculously small.


See, that was the kind of detail I wasn't going to go into. Easy to work out, if you put your mind to it, but... Also, even on traditional logos there's a bit more to it. But let's leave it in the ether, shall we?

However, a glance around certain disreputable parts of the internet shows that there's a heck of a lot of logo pirating going on, and a lot of it is pretty good quality, hard to tell from the genuine thing. Even on Ebay, where decent minded citizens do a fair amount of policing, I still seem to see a lot of necks with fake decals on. Often as not quite brazenly admitted to in the blurb. Clearly someone thinks making those things is worth the candle.

Guitarman1117 wrote:
It seems the only 'fakery' has to do with the neck & logo. The body and other parts changed don't appear to carry much concern. What the heck, I have a Might-Might bridge w/ pop-in tremolo arm, DragonFire pick-ups mounted on a new pick-guard and Grover Auto-Lock tuners on my Strat. It may no longer be 100% Fender, but it certainly doesn't make it a 'fake' either.
HEY! If you put a different brand of strings on, technically it's no longer 100% Fender..... Eh? :roll:


As we've discussed before, there is no branding on Fender type bodies. It is the headstock and logo that carry the legal protection. And obviously, you are allowed to swap out parts, like on any other product you own. Fakery of a moral kind only occurs if you tell people that your self-built or modded guitar is a genuine Fender. Fakery in law only happens if you then take money from someone on the basis of having so mislead them.

I strongly doubt any court on the planet is going to prosecute us for changing the strings on our guitars... :wink: I think even the most neurotic guitar maker accepts that we are going to do that.

The point is, sticking a fake logo on your headstock, even if for nobody else's eyes, is just so cheap. Who'd want to be such a crumb?

Cheers - C

PS Fender understandably get pretty sensitive about how this subject gets discussed on their own website. Let's think about what we say...


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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:07 pm
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I appreciate your reply and pointed comments. I believe that if Fender is concerned about the subject and sees that their committed followers are ALSO concerned, for them, it can be re-assuring..... don't you agree? Besides, anyone reading this that is even remotely thinking about such folly will think again and with any conscience at all, will join the rest of us to keep an eye out for this problem, thwarting it when &/or wherever encountered. If that isn't good enough for Fender's nerves..... they should simply delete this thread, eh?

I tend to think it must be some kind of rush fakers get when they actually fool someone. Something somewhere between a magician's high and the rat-brained scum that make viruses, worms and other computer infections.

I only know what I've seen & asked for some expert information. I was (still am) curious.... That's it.


Last edited by Guitarman1117 on Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:16 pm
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I agree with you on all points. Especially the thread deletion bit - the previous time I was having this discussion the thread got locked. Brad felt it was just too encouraging to people of ill-intent.

Which is why I emphasise what a cheap creep someone would be to do it. Those who don't care about legality or property rights may think twice about the sheer uncoolness of faking someone else's product. Have some pride, after all!

Cheers - C


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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:26 pm
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Ceri: I'd certainly NOT hold it against Brad if he chose to erase this. I'd understand his concern from previous experience. However, neither of my original questions have been addressed BY someone FROM Fender or an expert in the field. I did NOT intend this to end up going in this direction. I simply asked a couple questions and hoped for a direct answer, nothing more. I guess a subject this 'touchy' can easily be mis-directed, mis-understood and mis-interpreted. Apparently: MY BAD.... sorry.

> I'd still like to know IF Fender EVER made a logo of 'Made in the U.S.A.' that DIDN'T have the dots. A simple clarification: Yes or No.


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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:34 pm
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Not your bad at all! These discussions arc away in unexpected directions - normally that's one of the nice kind of things about the Forum.

To the question: I've taken a bit of a look around. Not in the slightest bit conclusive, but so far I have not found a legit (or fake, for that matter) logo without dots between the U.S.A.

But I think I'll quieten down now and leave this thread for those who likely know a lot better than me on that stuff!

All the best to you, man.

Cheers - C


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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:05 pm
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thats why i never buy things from ebay.

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Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:23 am
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Okay, here is a real grey area. Lets say my beloved Stratocaster got fallen into onstage by my 300 lb. bass player who tripped over a cable. The neck snapped like a dry twig. My efforts to replace the neck with a "genuine" Fender neck were thwarted. But I love my Strat, and would never sell it, so in my efforts to restore it to its former glory, I purchase a neck from Allparts, or Mighty Mite or another parts manufacturer that is licensed by Fender to produce replacement necks that meet Fender specs. Is this guitar no longer a Fender? Is it wrong to put a Stratocaster decal on this neck?
This is all theoretical, and thankfully is only a product of my fertile mind, but what if..........Just a thought........


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Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:54 pm
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From what I've heard, an authorized Fender luthier could do it with a real Fender 'replacement' decal, all under license. IF you had a REAL Fender decal, I suppose you could also do it yourself. Obviously, it might invalidate the warranty...... However, THAT I'm not clear on.
> What say you who WORK for Fender? Brad maybe??? Thanks.


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Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:20 pm
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If you break the neck of your favorite guitar and replace it, it is not an all original guitar. Just like if I wrecj the front end of my 1970 Challenger R/T and replace the fenders, hood and bumper assemble with an after market set. It's still a great car, but would be kicked out of shows and auctions that are seeking true original equipment cars. that does not mean it is still priceless to me, but the value definitely goes down. I cannot imagine this would be any different for a vintage 50's Strat or Tele. what do you think.


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Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:57 pm
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I think it's a very tough thing to keep items, ANY thing, pristine. It gets used & it will get worn AND exposured to other damage. Unless something is expertly stored both in & under exacting conditions, time & tide (humidity) as well as bugs & dust (insect vermin & fungi, etc.) will get to it.... eventually..... all that special prep can only do is help to retain it's value..... "to whom?" is the final question.


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