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Did you read The Frog Theory? And what was your reaction?
Poll ended at Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:09 am
Yes I did read it and I don't want to repeat this history. 60%  60%  [ 6 ]
No I didn't read it and I could not care less about the USA 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Yes I did read it, but I re-write history to suit myself 10%  10%  [ 1 ]
Yes I did read it, but I hate the USA, so I vote for the one most likely to overthrow it 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
No I did not read it and refuse to get involved, so I stick my head in the sand 10%  10%  [ 1 ]
Yes I did read it, but don't want to get involved, but would sure like someone else to fight all the battles for me 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Yes I did read it, but totally disagree, DID YOU HEAR ME!! (screaming) HE"S WRONG! WRONG! (still screaming) 20%  20%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 10
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Post subject: Guitarman
Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:08 pm
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Well said. Sounds like you read Loewen's book, "Lies My Teacher Told Me". As a history teacher, I try to go beyond the textbook and have the students think for themselves, which can be tough at times for 6th graders. However, I provide them with outside and opposite viewpoints and sources, and have them make up their own minds. My job, as I see it, is to use past history as a stepping stone to independent thought and analysis.
These last couple of weeks, we've been covering the elections, the candidates, advertising and its pitfalls, and processes involved, all the while emphasizing that if you don't vote, you shouldn't complain.

P.S. you also sound like a teacher...what do you do besides play guitar?

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Post subject:
Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:34 pm
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Guitarman1117 wrote:
Lastly, this nation IS the middle-class. Neither the rich (who get out of it) nor the poor pay taxes.... and the middle class is rapidly shrinking. Where will the money come from to support any government when we become a Gap society.... where you are either rich or poor and nothing in between?


We may yet have something akin to what Orwell envisioned. An elite but unseen leadership, a visible but really only for enforcement government and people who are all assigned nominal jobs or sent off to some permanent war and never seen again. The money will come from the elite and unlike say under the old factory/company store system, they'll be smart enough to allow more than bare subsistence.

You will even have a few freedoms and things you can earn. But no one will have a real job -- that will be all automated so that "the people" have no control at all. Everyone will perform as some sort of functionary with your output going nowhere and doing nothing. The perma-war (just as in Orwell) will establish the requisite Us-Them condition and provide a place for excess population to disappear.

I don't think there will be a real war. They don't create much economic value or population control anymore and anything let grow large enough to actually do so might be the last war. You'll just be fed nightly news of "the war in where ever" and people will disappear.

This obviously won't happen by next Tuesday and perhaps not even in my lifetime (I'm 56). But I'm convinced that it will happen. If nothing else, people will be willing to trade more and more freedom and choice in return for stability and direction. It's a very scary world these days and more and more of the people I know just want to draw into their little family-islands and not worry about what's going on "out there."

I'm equally convinced that people will perhaps reluctantly, but voluntarily, bring it all in. Just this past weekend, a long time friend told me he'd "sell his soul to the Devil if that would get him a job and some degree of security for his family." Just a phrase? Maybe -- but he's been out of work for 28 months (sure he works -- a few hours at some mall kiosk, selling cell phones on Sunday, etc. -- just the kind of jobs we all got our MBAs to do right?).

I doubt he'd sell his soul -- but vote for some regime that promised jobs and personal safety in return for giving up a few freedoms? I think he's at the point where he'd consider that! And he's not the only one!


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Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:56 pm
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mclmk8d: Wow.... My respect for you has climbed to new heights. I appreciate your open-minded attitude and I'm glad to know you take your students places few other teachers (I've ever been in contact with) have the 'nads' to go.


I've never read Loewen's book, "Lies My Teacher Told Me", but I have heard about it. If you remember the lyrics to Paul Simon's Kodachrome, not much more needs to be said.

What else do I do (or have I done) besides play guitar for a living these past 45 years?

Well, when the show band broke up, the singer and I did a 'techno-duo' as in: I bought a sequencer system, programmed it (every frickin' note) and with bass, drums, keys (as needed) and anything else a particular sound required behind us, he fronted and I played guitar with some back-up vocal here & there. I'm also a writer (how did you guess? LOL) and I am into CAD drafts (of building designs) and model railroading. All this while taking care of my 88 year-old Mom. Any other Q's?


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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:47 am
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Wow!
A sudden flurry of interest in the subject! :D


A question I throw in for consideration;

For those that claim the history books are wrong:

If history was only written by the conquerers and the rest thrown out and destroyed, and there was some big conspiracy to have a false history - where did anyone get the supposed "correct" history from?

As an example - all the people that lived in say the American revolutionary times have long been dead. Yet this new generation somehow has a more "enlightened" view? From what? What is the source of this supposed "new", "just discovered" information? And remember - one part of your whole conspiracy theory is that ALL conflicting information was eradicated.

Maybe some of your liberal college professors put there own "spin" on what they taught you. Ever think of that? There's another conspiracy theory for you to ponder.
:D

Have a look at the original post and re-read what is there.
Remember - think.;)


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:44 am
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rholloman: I'm sure you can tell that I do think. Sometimes too much. :shock: Got any aspirin? :P

I wasn't implying a 'conspiracy' as such.... but if you want to go to the deep end of the pool:
It is a known fact that sometime in 400+ AD the 'Bible' was assembled and more was left out than included. It is suspected that the rejected still survives somewhere beneath the Vatican in hidden catacombs.

Up until the last couple hundred years, only a small percentage of people were educated well enough to read & write. Only a few of them made any detailed accounts of things that happened, important or mundane, and little of that has survived to this day. Kind of a narrow view, I'd say.

Most of what we could have known about the Aztecs, Incas, Mayans and others was destroyed by the Spanish and we are only now deciphering some of their historic glyphs and symbols.

Untold knowledge was lost to fire at the Alexandria Library in Egypt.....

I could go on, but the majority of lost information can't be generalize under the heading of 'conspiracy'...... more like the loss of old films due to the breakdown of the original medium. Shall I include the Dead Sea Scrolls as another example of knowledge lost & found?

The point is, the more a (smart) man knows, the more he realizes he doesn't know.

ALL of "known" History is subject to question. Why? It's a blatant fact that a large group of people can witness an incident and you'll get as many versions of what took place. This is the primary reason that History, as we know it, is suspect and questionable for accuracy. No account, even if what pieces we have are 100% true, can be considered 'accurate' when they are obviously incomplete. Much of History is, therefore, an "educated guess".

I doubt 'conspiracy' had that much to do with it, unless you validate things like the Da Vinci Code, etc.

Besides all this, we are very aware that most of the information was originally in other languages and translated, in some cases, a multitude of times. The original intent was lost across the ages. Only recently have people tried to go back to original documents and translate things with a bit more precision. Still, things like "a wheel within a wheel" are difficult to make sense of.

Then again, "Pre-History" wasn't even known to have existed (nor understood as such) until the mid-latter 1800's. Some ill-logical people still believe the Earth and everything else magically popped into existence about 5,000 years ago. Mis-information is as bad as one-sided opinions. IE: Dinosaur bones discovered ages ago were thought to be evidence of Dragons.... and that assumption is, no doubt, the origin of the fantasy legends, which has had a bad habit of making what IS History a rather cloudy mess at best. Books and especially movies only exacerbate the problem. Our perceptions of all the people who MADE History are rarely thought of in terms pertaining to eating, sleeping and hardly ever needing bathroom facilities. I guess, to some people, even thinking that "JC" EVER needed to take a dump is akin to blasphemy. The idea that 'some things are better left unsaid' is the kink that incurs gaps and holes in the annals of History. What we are left with, graphically, would be like Swiss cheese. "There-in lies the Rub", so to speak.

We have to face facts; Over the last 62 years the information about every Fender guitar ever built is sketchy. Some guitars can't even be properly dated when disassembled. The further (or is it farther?) back you go, the more vague the info. It simply applies to all kinds of History and recorded accounts. Or, as you can quote me to your students: "The deeper the well, the closer to Hell." -DKA


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:01 am
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Guitarman1117 wrote:
rholloman: I'm sure you can tell that I do think. Sometimes too much. :shock: Got any aspirin? :P

I wasn't implying a 'conspiracy' as such.... but if you want to go to the deep end of the pool:
It is a known fact that sometime in 400+ AD the 'Bible' was assembled and more was left out than included. It is suspected that the rejected still survives somewhere beneath the Vatican in hidden catacombs.


It is suspected - again where's the proof, other than in some liberal professors mind.
To go on .....

Guitarman1117 wrote:
Up until the last couple hundred years, only a small percentage of people were educated well enough to read & write. Only a few of them made any detailed accounts of things that happened, important or mundane, and little of that has survived to this day. Kind of a narrow view, I'd say.


narrow or wide - that's all we have. unless someone writes his own view - but he wasn't there.

Guitarman1117 wrote:
Most of what we could have known about the Aztecs, Incas, Mayans and others was destroyed by the Spanish and we are only now deciphering some of their historic glyphs and symbols.

Untold knowledge was lost to fire at the Alexandria Library in Egypt.....

I could go on, but the majority of lost information can't be generalize under the heading of 'conspiracy'...... more like the loss of old films due to the breakdown of the original medium.


Again - lost information that we don't have. Anything at this time is a guess at best. (it is tantalizing and frustrating at the same time when one realizes how much was lost)

Guitarman1117 wrote:
Shall I include the Dead Sea Scrolls as another example of knowledge lost & found?


you can - and I think that would be something old that was found from that period - if they are indeed authentic. I don't know one way or the other.

Guitarman1117 wrote:
The point is, the more a (smart) man knows, the more he realizes he doesn't know.


Agreed! Agreed! But with that we also must start to discern between right and wrong and true and false.

Guitarman1117 wrote:
ALL of "known" History is subject to question. Why? It's a blatant fact that a large group of people can witness an incident and you'll get as many versions of what took place. This is the primary reason that History, as we know it, is suspect and questionable for accuracy. No account, even if what pieces we have are 100% true, can be considered 'accurate' when they are obviously incomplete. Much of History is, therefore, an "educated guess".


You may question it. But how do you KNOW one way or the other. No one that's living does. And a guess, whether "educated" or not is still a guess.

Guitarman1117 wrote:
I doubt 'conspiracy' had that much to do with it, unless you validate things like the Da Vinci Code, etc.


I don't. Never have.

Guitarman1117 wrote:
Besides all this, we are very aware that most of the information was originally in other languages and translated, in some cases, a multitude of times. The original intent was lost across the ages. Only recently have people tried to go back to original documents and translate things with a bit more precision. Still, things like "a wheel within a wheel" are difficult to make sense of.

Then again, "Pre-History" wasn't even known to have existed (nor understood as such) until the mid-latter 1800's. Some ill-logical people still believe the Earth and everything else magically popped into existence about 5,000 years ago. Mis-information is as bad as one-sided opinions. IE: Dinosaur bones discovered ages ago were thought to be evidence of Dragons.... and that assumption is, no doubt, the origin of the fantasy legends, which has had a bad habit of making what IS History rather a cloudy mess at best.


again - what we have from the original period is all we have. Anything else is guessing - call it educated or whatever, but it's still a guess, or an attempt to rewrite history to suit ones own agenda.

Guitarman1117 wrote:
We have to face facts;





yes ... I agree .... facts .... HISTORY


Guitarman1117 wrote:
Over the last 62 years the information about every Fender guitar ever built is sketchy. Some guitars can't even be properly dated when disassembled. The further (or is it farther?) back you go, the more vague the info. It simply applies to all kinds of History and recorded accounts. Or, as you can quote me to your students: "The deeper the well, the closer to Hell." -DKA



Hehehe :lol: Guitarman1117 , I thoroughly enjoyed your post.
You write really well.
And ... You DID NOT offend me in any way. Also, I sincerely hope that I didn't offend you.
Just my opinion, your posts have been thoughtful as well as thought provoking.
But we must stay focused on what we really have - apart from what we wish we had, imaginings and out right falsehoods (not yours)
To do otherwise opens up a Pandora's box that none of us really wants.

Hehe "The deeper the well, the closer to Hell." I like that.
Similar to a Highway to Hell ;)
(I think there may be a new song in there somewhere .... Hmmm )


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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:39 am
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rholloman: I really like your style..... 'kewl' (a form of the term cool that has no temperature connection or chilly implication)

I'd say that from all this exchange, we can both agree that History is an amalgam of collected and assumed facts. Truth, however, is understood as being somewhere in the background hiding behind a tree, LOL.

I have enjoyed this 'discussion' very much. Our ping-pong probably won't change a darned thing in the galactic scheme of things. Even though I'm not Jewish (& I can prove it! :roll: ), it scares me that some people want to 'erase' such things from History like the Holocaust. Evil isn't some horned dude with a pointy tail in a red jump suit, but evil does live in the hearts of those who strive to corrupt & falsify History or change for the worse in the future what could have been best for all mankind.

BTW: Direct contact can happen using my nick & the 'Y'. (If you so choose)


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:24 pm
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Guitarman1117,

I believe, and agree, you're right that what the two of us do or say will not have much effect on things. But the discussion has been fun. :lol:

If you find that tree where real "truth" is hiding, please pass on the location so we all can visit sometime.

And I certainly share your concern about anyone saying they want to erase or eliminate any people.

If there's anything you would like to communicate off forum - I can usually be reached at h151515 (at) hotmail (dot) com . ( sorry - I didn't quit understand the address you gave)

Peace


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