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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:55 pm
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As you can see near my initials I`m from NYC. I lost 4 friends that day, all firemen. One of them was the first fireman to be killed that day. Someone jumped out of one of the buildings and landed on top of him breaking his neck. Father Michael Judge was giving him last rites when another jumper landed on top of him also and he was killed along with my friend Daniel Suhr. Another good friend of mine also a fireman, Robert McMahon was killed inside when the buildings fell and they both left 3 year old daughters behind.
Mike, thanks for this post and lets not forget all the lives lost that day.


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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:00 pm
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As laughable as the premise was for going into Iraq, it did have a desirable effect that would have been difficult to articulate in terms politically palatable to most of the world.

Toppling Iraq sent the strong message to the entire Arab world that if the U.S. is attacked, then we will fight back even if we have to fabricate an enemy. The key defensible fact was that Iraq was friendly to terrorist groups, giving them sancutary and a place to train and organize.

The rest of the Arab leaders are essentially dictators mostly concerned with remaining in power and keeping their stream of wealth flowing. In Iraq, the U.S. demonstrated how quickly and easily the U.S. can take an Arab leader out of power, with full support of our Executive and Legislative branches, and the poplular backing of the people. This began a wave of conciliatory gestures by, most conspicuously, Saudi Arabia, as well as other Arab governmens. Keeping in mind that most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis, the connection is unmistakable.

Secondarily, toppling Iraq physically split the aggregation of Arab nations into two halves: East and West, with Iraq in the middle as a democracy, and dividing what had been a physical continuum of Arab nations. The symbolism is powerful, and communicates our nation's intents and interests clearly to the governments in that region.

It's hard to predict the future moves in this chess game, but this move was a historic one. It dramatically broke the pattern of U.S. disregard of terrorist attacks against the nation, a pattern that reached its accellerating zenith during the Clinton administration.


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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:29 pm
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RudyH wrote:
As laughable as the premise was for going into Iraq, it did have a desirable effect that would have been difficult to articulate in terms politically palatable to most of the world.

Toppling Iraq sent the strong message to the entire Arab world that if the U.S. is attacked, then we will fight back even if we have to fabricate an enemy. The key defensible fact was that Iraq was friendly to terrorist groups, giving them sancutary and a place to train and organize.

The rest of the Arab leaders are essentially dictators mostly concerned with remaining in power and keeping their stream of wealth flowing. In Iraq, the U.S. demonstrated how quickly and easily the U.S. can take an Arab leader out of power, with full support of our Executive and Legislative branches, and the poplular backing of the people. This began a wave of conciliatory gestures by, most conspicuously, Saudi Arabia, as well as other Arab governmens. Keeping in mind that most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis, the connection is unmistakable.

Secondarily, toppling Iraq physically split the aggregation of Arab nations into two halves: East and West, with Iraq in the middle as a democracy, and dividing what had been a physical continuum of Arab nations. The symbolism is powerful, and communicates our nation's intents and interests clearly to the governments in that region.

It's hard to predict the future moves in this chess game, but this move was a historic one. It dramatically broke the pattern of U.S. disregard of terrorist attacks against the nation, a pattern that reached its accellerating zenith during the Clinton administration.


Perhaps we should start another thread about the "war" in iraq and leave this dedicated to remembering 9/11. However it is a related topic although I believe Bush planned the occupation of Iraq before 9/11.

The thing I have trouble with is that we were NOT attacked by a country. We are attacked by extreme fundamentalists from various countries. Sure if we display our mite it may discourage other countries from supporting these evil sicko terorists and perhaps will not allow them to train and be breed there,,,but unfortunalty we would pretty much have to nuke the entire middle east..including Israel to stop most of them..as there are terrorists in many other countries..ours included.

We should have focused on killing Bin Laden and not taking over Iraq..unless iraq threatened us or actually had any serious WMD's. Seems they can't even find a pea shooter over there..a waste of lives and money to go there, But bear in mind I don't really wish a political debate here...however it is a passionate issue for myself and most others.

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Last edited by ebaysux on Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:29 pm
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Rudy..you got that right. Bush has to be amoung the most hated presidents of all time but history will show how he stood up to these cowards. Ronald Reagan wouldn`t take his suit jacket off in the Oval Office out of respect for the position he held. Yet that skirt chasing hose bag Clinton had his pants around his ankels in the same room. He had his chance to get Bin Laden but chose not to and look at the price we paid because he didn`t think he was much of a threat. I don`t know how that man sleeps at night with all that blood on his hands. Numerous attacks went unanswered under his administration, he made us look weak in the eyes of the terrorists.


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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:43 pm
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JPD wrote:
Rudy..you got that right. Bush has to be amoung the most hated presidents of all time but history will show how he stood up to these cowards. Ronald Reagan wouldn`t take his suit jacket off in the Oval Office out of respect for the position he held. Yet that skirt chasing hose bag Clinton had his pants around his ankels in the same room. He had his chance to get Bin Laden but chose not to and look at the price we paid because he didn`t think he was much of a threat. I don`t know how that man sleeps at night with all that blood on his hands. Numerous attacks went unanswered under his administration, he made us look weak in the eyes of the terrorists.


I agree with your opinion of Clinton. I also believe Bush had courage go into Iraq. However, I don't believe it was the right decision.

I don't expect to convince anyone of that who doesn't share those sentiments but what makes us better then many other counties is the right to have an opinion..and speak it. Now if only we could get a good leader for this country that has any common sense..that might help.

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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:50 pm
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Bush Jr had a vendeatta for Saddam from his fathers administration and your right about going into Iraq, it was a bad decision. The rat is holed up in a cave in Afganistan so they say and thats where we should be looking for him.


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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:54 pm
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Ebay...:

One of the important reminders is that warfare evolves. I found it unfortunate that so many of our leaders, conspicuously John Kerry, who should have known better, was still thinking in terms of what warfare was during the southeast Asian proxy wars. That kind of thinking is as practical today as the trench warfare and setpiece battles.

I quite disagree with the importance of killing Bin Laden. That is political rhetoric. Bin Laden has effectively been dead for several years because US offensive maneuvers in Iraq and Afghanistan has changed the calculus of the war, thus marginalizing Bin Laden. His movement will go on, or will evolve, but the Bin Laden of September 10, 2001 is gone.

As to whether there was a will to topple the Hussein government, I believe there was. But I doubt it would have happened during the Bush administration without a strong catalyst.


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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:08 pm
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I was just getting done with my morning practice routine and was about to get ready for work. I live on the west coast so the airplane strikes were around 7 am here. My wife had the TV on CNN and we watched the second tower hit.

Peace to all the families that lost love ones that day.

Image

I believe this act was done inside the US by those with no heart or conscience.
I will hold this POV until the evidence shows otherwise.

For those bashing the Clinton administration: don't forget they left full intelligence of Mideast terrorist activities/threats to the incoming Bush administration - and they chose to ignore it.

Politics aside: it's good life counterbalances moments of tragety with great moments of joy!
Peace to all!

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Last edited by -Ryco on Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:11 pm
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I hate tragedies, so you can pretty much assume how I feel about this. I was eight going into my music class (weird how I'm writing about it on a music forum, too, huh?), and the teacher had the news on. I didn't know what was going on. The thing that I remember most was that that day was kind of a maturation point for me. I don't quite know why, but it did. I don't think that anyone who was old enough to remember it will ever forget it. At least I hope they don't. I have so much more that I want to say, but very little time to write. So my closing thoughts are thank you to everybody who helped to make a good type of difference that day. I won't ever forget you. :cry: :cry: :cry:

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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:19 pm
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Yeah, I hear what you are saying Rudy.

And I understand the killing of Bin laden issue as well..but either way killing him or not..going after him at his "home" cave or whatever...or going into iraq ...did any of this really make us any safer? perhaps that is the bigger question. I always felt safe in this country..lets face it..the attack on 9/11 was not like an army was assembled and they marched into the USA..it was cowards that took our own planes down with box cutters.

Now if any terroist or other nation comes on our soil to fight..well I bet brooklyn alone could beat thier asses. So I don't have any real answers..no one seems to. I just believe if each individual makes a difference by being tolerant..and this country perhaps stop attempting to police the world..there is a chance we can live safer.

As far as the "cataylst" for Bush to go into Iraq...he already was planning this probably from before he got elected..he was going with the UN violation with inspectors and the WMD BS...well I think at least that is quite transparent. But I give the guy some credit for having the balls to do what even Clinton wanted to do..we all know how much he hated Sadam..but did nothing. Has far as Clinton not killing Bin Ladin when he had the chance..bad move IMO. However I don't think that would have stopped the attacks and if anything may have prevoked more. Regardless the guy needs a painful humiliating public death.

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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:27 pm
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I don't believe we honor anyone lost on that day by arguing about the politics behind that day. Honor the dead, take a day off from the argument thats gone on for years and will never be resolved anyway.

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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:35 pm
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cryingstrat wrote:
I don't believe we honor anyone lost on that day by arguing about the politics behind that day. Honor the dead, take a day off from the argument thats gone on for years and will never be resolved anyway.


I agree. Leave this thread if you want to argue politics. it isnt the place


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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:36 pm
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cryingstrat wrote:
I don't believe we honor anyone lost on that day by arguing about the politics behind that day. Honor the dead, take a day off from the argument thats gone on for years and will never be resolved anyway.


Well said. :(

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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:40 pm
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blues_boy wrote:
cryingstrat wrote:
I don't believe we honor anyone lost on that day by arguing about the politics behind that day. Honor the dead, take a day off from the argument thats gone on for years and will never be resolved anyway.


Well said. :(



Agreed..and sorry about my part..although to my defense I did try to discourage any political debate here. But bear in mind it was just debate..I didn't argue about anything and have the utmost respect for the lives affected by the 9/11 tragedy.

Peace

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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:42 pm
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i flew my flag today at half mast .as i will every sept.11th for the rest of my life


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