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Post subject: arrangement of pedals on board and effects loop
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:23 am
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I've got a Stereo Chorus, a Morley Wah and a Korg Tuner.I woul dlike to go from guitar into tuner, to chirus then to wah, but the 'ins' and 'outs' on the pedals doesn't really allow for this to be done conveniently (unless I want them staggered all over the place). Any suggestions?

Also, my amp has an effects loop, but I don't use it. Should I? Why or why not? And does the tuner go in the effects loop also?

Any advice would be truly appreciated.

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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:13 pm
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Normally you would just go ahead and stagger the cables "all over the place". There are pedalboards available that hide the cables under the floor of the pedalboard for a neater look. Cables never bothered me though. Just buy (or create) cables that are the right length for each connection and make it look as tidy as you can.

By the way, I think most people would put the stereo chorus last in the chain.

The chorus would probably work OK in the effects loop. Normally though pedals are made to place before the amp input.

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So when do I use the fx loop?

Basically, the big divider is distortion. Some effects definitely sound better or more balanced when placed after distortion (such as delay and reverb), while others just sounds different (chorus, flanger, phaser etc). Tremolo before distortion will vary the amount of distortion much more than the actual volume, which may not be what you want.

from: http://www.stinkfoot.se/andreas/diy/articles/loop.htm

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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:20 pm
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Thanks for the reply. Why put the chorus last, though? Just curious...

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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:35 pm
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Here's the order I use...


Amp---delay---phase---fuzz---overdrive/distortion---wah------guitar

Experiment with what works best for you. Generally, modulation effects like delay, reverb and chrous should go through your amps effects loop. Overdrive, fuzz, distortion & wah pedals should go straight into the amp.


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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:36 pm
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secretsoundz wrote:
Here's the order I use...


Amp---delay---phase---fuzz---overdrive/distortion---wah------guitar

Experiment with what works best for you. Generally, modulation effects like delay, reverb and chrous should go through your amps effects loop. Overdrive, fuzz, distortion & wah pedals should go straight into the amp.


I have to ask, why do you place your wah BEFORE your fuzz/overdrive?

To me, it just weakens the distortion as you're only getting what's passed through the wah to the other effects. To me it sounds a lot better if you overdrive, and THEN add in the wah, as you're overdriving your whole signal, and not just the sweep of the wah.

I'm not saying my way is right, just asking for another viewpoint.

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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:45 pm
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ThatGuitarGuyAL wrote:
secretsoundz wrote:
Here's the order I use...


Amp---delay---phase---fuzz---overdrive/distortion---wah------guitar

Experiment with what works best for you. Generally, modulation effects like delay, reverb and chrous should go through your amps effects loop. Overdrive, fuzz, distortion & wah pedals should go straight into the amp.


I have to ask, why do you place your wah BEFORE your fuzz/overdrive?

To me, it just weakens the distortion as you're only getting what's passed through the wah to the other effects. To me it sounds a lot better if you overdrive, and THEN add in the wah, as you're overdriving your whole signal, and not just the sweep of the wah.

I'm not saying my way is right, just asking for another viewpoint.


Yeah, I'm one who thinks the wah should go after the distortion/od. But it's just a preference.

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Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:53 pm
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I have to run my fuzz before the wah, otherwise it sounds terrible. (Dunlop Jimi Hendrix Octavio/Fuzz, VOX V848 Clyde McCoy Wah)


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Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:55 pm
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Here's how I've seen it answered elsewhere; (Nod to Scotty J.)

-----------------------

Guitar Effects - Order & Tips

Probably the main thing to understand about effects order is that an effect modifies the sound it receives. This means if you plug your guitar into a fuzz box, the fuzz box gives you a fuzzy guitar sound - pretty obvious, huh? If you then plug the fuzz output into a wah pedal input, then the wah works on the fuzz sound, giving you a synth-like wah sound.

If you plug first into the wah, then into the fuzz, it gives a completely different sound. That's because the fuzz is working on a guitar sound that already has a wah effect. You may know that distortion effects like fuzz have more effect on loud sounds than quiet ones (that's why they sound cleaner when you roll off the guitar volume). And a wah pedal makes different notes and frequencies louder and softer as you rock the pedal, so rocking the pedal also now controls the amount of fuzz as well, giving what most players prefer as a more interesting effect.

There are no rules on effects order. You won't break any pedals by putting them in a 'wrong' order. In fact, experimenting is the best way to learn, and in doing so, you can come up with many unusual and interesting sounds. There is, however, a typical order of effects that I've listed below.

Before we get into the order, though, you might like to consider why, when & how you use effects. My most deep piece of wisdom to pass on is that the subtle use of effects is suitable for long periods of use, while intense effects have most impact when used briefly.

For example, light phasing or chorus can be used for an entire song, adding some texture to backing rhythm. Dramatic effects like strong delay, wah, or even playing techniques such as continuous fast picking without a rest, become tiresome when overused.

I think the most special effects are those that you can only just detect are turned on. In the late 70's, I had many people trying to figure out how I got a such a special overdrive sound for my solos. All I did was to use a faulty (weak-sounding) phaser set to a slow speed before the overdrive, to give just a hint of movement. You can use understated effects easily to craft your own signature sounds.

A good starting order, from guitar to amplifier, is:

FILTER EFFECTS

-Phaser

-Wah pedal


These effects sweep a peak (wah) or notches (phaser) in the frequency response. By placing these before distortion effects, they vary the distortion intensity of the affected frequencies at the same time.

The original Vox and Cry-Baby wah pedals did not use a true bypass when off, and can load your guitar signal. If this is a problem for you, you might want to have the switch replaced with a true bypass.

Another way around the problem is to use a "buffer preamp" before the wah, which can be any effect with electronic switching, turned off. If you use a phaser as well, plug that in first, and it will happily drive the wah pedal.

COMPRESSOR
Even though many players suggest compression should be first, there is benefit in placing it after filter effects. Filter effects can reduce volume at some settings (eg heel down on the wah pedal, notches in the middle frequencies from a phaser, etc), so placing a compressor after these effects can even out volume changes.

OVERDRIVE/DISTORTION

-Stomp-box effects

-or your pre-amplifier drive channels


Placing overdrive after the filters gives them a more natural sound, like placing your wah pedal before a heavily overdriven amplifier. Using the filter effects after overdrive gives them a much stronger, more synth-like sound.

You would not normally need to use heavy compression and heavy overdrive together.

There can be merit in using light EQ before the overdrives (used only when the overdrive is on); this gives you the ability to change the character of overdrive. For example, boosting the highs before overdrive, but cutting highs after overdrive (with the overdrive's tone control), will balance the highs overall, but cause them to be more heavily overdriven than the lower strings.

The overdrive could be the preamplifier in you amp. You can use this if your amplifier has an effects send and return, to allow you to use the remaining effects below. You may need to check the levels sent and expected by the send/return loop; often they are designed for line level only (eg rack equipment) and not the lower level stomp boxes.

Some send/return loops allow you to blend the return in an equal mix with the unaffected signal. This is great for not affecting your original signal, which can become quite unnatural if taken from the amp, processed by one or more analog-to-digital-to-analog conversions, then re-input. This increases the complexity though, when you want to remix chorus, flange, delay and reverb, all without any original component. Also, you may want some of these effects to be fed with inputs of a mix of original and other effects. These capabilities are often not provided in rack products.

EQUALIZERS

-Graphic

-Parametric

-Speaker Simulators


These effects can be used on their own, to tailor solo or rhythm sounds, or with overdrives to give more control than you usually have with the overdrive tone control. For example, you could use heavy distortion, and use equalisation here to cut middle for a heavy sound, or tailor the highs for a creamy, yet "bitey" Santana sound, etc.

Before using a volume pedal to control my on-stage volume, I used a graphic equaliser stompbox to set a nice rhythm tone, with reduced level. I set my amp for the lead sound I wanted, and (although it sounds strange) turn the equaliser OFF to play a solo.

Speaker simulators are mostly preset, and highly tailored equalisers to emulate speaker box resonances, and microphone techniques. Some include other subtle effects, such as short delays, as well. Placement is not as crucial as you might think. For example, most recorded sounds use a microphone in front of a speaker box, then studio effects, such as equalisation, chorus, delay, etc applied afterwards.

On the other hand, when you play live, and are using a variety of effects through a stage power amp and speaker box, you might want to use the simulator here only for the purpose of feeding the mixing desk (who apply their own delay and reverb for the front mix). You could bypass the simulator on stage, and apply just enough delay/reverb to give a natural on-stage sound.

PITCH EFFECTS

-Harmoniser

-Vibrato

-Pitch benders


Harmonisers in particular should be placed after overdrive. In the opposite order, sending several notes to the overdrive input causes strong inter-modulation distortion where additional, usually low, notes are added. These extra notes may have no relationship to the harmony you intend.

MODULATION EFFECTS

-Flanger

-Chorus


These are effectively combined filter, delay and pitch effects. Because each of these effects is subtle (unless you set high resonance), many players prefer them after distortion, and prior to echo effects.

LEVEL CONTROLLERS

-Noise gate

-Limiter

-Volume pedal

-Tremolo

-Panning


Placing level effects before echo effects allows a natural echo sound. For example if you play a loud chord, but fade it out quickly with a volume pedal, you still want to hear the echo on what you played. The other way round, with echo first then a volume pedal, you would hear a loud chord with echo briefly, with both the main souund and the echo quickly cut out to silence. This sounds about as natural as turning the power off on your amp!

ECHO EFFECTS

-Delay

-Reverb


These effects are usually placed last to allow you to emulate the effect of using an amplifier in a "lively" room.


Last edited by dafreeze on Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:57 pm
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This is something I got a while back on another forum:



Personally, I find it helpful to think of effects pedals as being in the following categories:


Preamp-type effects
Noise Gates
Volume-based effects (Slow)
Time-based effects
Volume-based effects (Fast)
Post-production effects
Preamp-type effects. These pedals establish your basic sound, and include Compressors, Clean Boosts (if you have a tube amp), Overdrives, Distortions, Fuzzes, and Preamp modeling pedals. They're usually placed in order of the amount of harmonic distortion they are introducing into your signal (e.g., Boost before Overdrive before Distortion before Fuzz). This is HIGHLY subjective, though, as some fuzzes sound better before distortion pedals and vice versa. Some people like to have an EQ pedal here as well. If you consider that a Wah pedal is merely an EQ filter pedal, you can see that they usually fall in this category as well. Whether you use it before or after your preamp pedals is really a matter of personal taste. IIRC, early non-master volume tube amps had their tone circuits before the amp's preamp section, while many newer master volume tube amps and nearly all solid state amps have post preamp EQ sections these days.

Noise Gates. These pedals act as noise filters to limit the amount of line noise, static, or hum you've created up to this point from getting to your amp. They're especially helpful when you're playing heavy metal with a Strat and a cheap cable under florescent lights. ;-)

Volume-based effects (Slow). Lots of people like to put volume pedals before their delays and other time based effects. This allows them to have cool fade-outs and smooth violin-like sounds when they play. Volume pedals tend to sound really good here. Some people like to put their volume pedals before anything else in the chain, but I find that hum, static and line noise brought about by the preamp pedals can still make it's way to the amplifier that way. Also, if volume changes occur too fast at this part of the signal chain, it can create a lot of sonic clutter - especially if you're using a lot of other effects down the audio chain. That's why Tremelos generally don't sound too good early on in the chain.

Time-based effects. These effects are typically added to add width, depth, and length to your basic sound. They typically sound more natural AFTER a distorted guitar signal, which is why a lot of players prefer to put these types of effects in the effects loops of their amps - after the preamp circuits. Also, it sound most natural to have shorter delay times followed by longer delay times followed by the most ambient effect of all - reverb. Typically, this means Flanger (1-10ms), Chorus (20-30ms), Phaser (>50ms sweeps), Delay (>50ms), and then Reverb last. That said, these are definately not hard & fast rules - just ask The Edge.

Volume-based effects (Fast). Tremelo is a great volume-based effect, but it often moves so fast it blurs your sound if it comes before your delays & reverbs. Many people find that using it after their time-based effects allows it to sound better.

Post-Production effects. If you still need to tweek your sound, an EQ pedal can help here a lot. A Parametric EQ can be used to remove 60 Cycle hum, for example, while a Graphic EQ can be used to add low end to your final tone. A clean boost can work here as well but will serve a completely different purpose than the one in the preamp section of your chain. Here a small volume boost can be used to make up for the signal loss associated with the large amount of cable you've probably used to route through all of your pedals.

Using the above logic, one way to arrange pedals might be like this:

Guitar > Compressor > Wah > EQ > Clean Boost > Overdrive > Distortion > Fuzz > Noise Gate > Volume Pedal > Flanger > Chorus > Phaser > Short Delay > Long Delay > Reverb > Tremelo > EQ (if still needed) > Clean Boost (on a very modest setting) > Amp.

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Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:37 am
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Thanks Guys. I really appreciate the info. I think I'll need about an hour or so alone in the rehearsal space just to fiddle with some different sequences and such (although I don't tend to use a lot of pedals/effects).

Rock on.

CAFeathers... I've got to tell you... I saw some pics of your axes in another post and I have never seen such an awesome shine on a guitar! You guilted me into going home tonight to clean up my instruments!

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Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:50 am
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Guys, now how am I supposed to remember all of the above when I have a hard enough time playing the guitar without watching my hands. :lol:
Seriously, a lot of good info. Thanks !! 8)


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Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:58 am
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Thanks guys! This has been a very helpful post.


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Post subject: my rig
Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:57 am
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Here is how I have set my rig up. Rig is Right to Left- Guitar Cord goes into Boss-TU 2 Chromatic Tuner; Boss-CS 3 Compression/Sustainer; Boss-CE5 Chorus Ensemble; Beheringer RM600 Rotary Speaker Modeling; Boss-FDR 1, ‘65 Deluxe Reverb Amp; Boss/Roland RE 20 Space Echo; Dunlop-Cry Baby Wah-Wah GCB95, Fender Foot pedals for Hot Rod Deluxe, Fender Blues DeVille 410 & Vox Cambridge (Not shown) Any comments or suggestions with my order or selection of pedals?

[img][img]http://i526.photobucket.com/albums/cc348/vjcartier/GuitarRig1.jpg[/img][/img]


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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:41 am
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My pedal board is is ~ 12' x 15'. Kinda hard to move.

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Post subject: The Jamman?
Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:48 am
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How do you like that Jamman pedal? Do you use it live?

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