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Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:52 pm
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It's funny, I'd seen somewhere on the 'net that described different rectifier tubes/valves having different tendencies to 'sag', with the GZ34/5AR4 (the ones found in the original '59 Bassmans, Blackface Deluxe Reverbs, etc.) supposedly having the least sag, where the 5Y3 (as found in the classic Fender Champs) supposedly having the most tendency to sag. Of course, what was said here earlier about Vox amps might throw yet another ingredient into the whole recipe, not to mention the power rating of different model amps!

I've never heard a recording of amplified guitar music where 'sag' was evident enough to the point where you could actually tell the difference. I have a couple of Blackface Fender Champs, as well as a original '65 and a '75 Deluxe Reverb (the '75 has a 5U4 rectifier as original standard spec), and I don't seem to notice it, not to the point where I can exploit the quality, anyway, and I can't often play loud enough or long enough to find out (neighbors, you know). If anybody can point me to a recorded example of 'sag', I'd appreciate it.


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Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:17 pm
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Listen to early Van Halen (1984 and earlier), Jeff Beck's "Blow by Blow" are the first two that come to mind. When they do leads, you'll hear certain notes that almost "whine" or "moan", and it's more than just some pinch harmonics and palm muting - although those things can make that sag more prominent.

More specific examples from those albums?

Jeff Beck - You Know What I Mean.
Eddie Van Halen's solo in Beat It.


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Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:49 pm
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dgonz wrote:
Listen to early Van Halen (1984 and earlier), Jeff Beck's "Blow by Blow" are the first two that come to mind. When they do leads, you'll hear certain notes that almost "whine" or "moan", and it's more than just some pinch harmonics and palm muting - although those things can make that sag more prominent.

More specific examples from those albums?

Jeff Beck - You Know What I Mean.
Eddie Van Halen's solo in Beat It.


What amps (kind and model) did they use for those examples?


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Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:40 am
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both were marshalls. 1959slp for vanhalen, with jeff beck it could of been anything he's got quite a reputation for demanding any marshall for recording. when asked what model he wants he says "just get me anyone."

marshall havent used valve rectifiers since the jtm45/1962bluesbreaker era. Its one of the contributing factors for them switching to EL34's from KT66's. Vanhalen's sag was probably induced by the power regulator he used as a volume control. Jeff beck is a moot point, it could of been anything he recorded through, all marshalls notable amps sound much the same on full.
As far as fender amps and how their wired go, i couldnt tell you anything aside from the fact that the first marshalls were copied from the bassman which again points out valve rectification on their early amps.

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Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:44 am
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Location: metro Chicago USA
The big new book on Fender amps said it well in one of the end discussions.

'Think it was Blackie Pagano.

90 + % of the tone is in your fingers.

By the way, the book is superb.


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