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Post subject: Vintage Saddles redesign suggestion (minor)
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:47 pm
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Hi guys

Something I have been thinking about for around 8 years is vintage saddles, I love them, feel nice on the side of the hand, look cool.. but something bothered me.

The Low E and the high e were *just* too far away on radiused fretboards (I know all fretboards are 'radiused'.. but the 7.25 and 9.5 is when you really feel it.. the 12 being pretty flat and the 16 super flat). It bugged me when I would do a set up on my guitars and get it near perfect ultra low action.. only to have the high and low e miles out.

I mashed up a wilkinson vintage saddle to get my low E right.. see here:
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On the other side I took the saddle screw out and tried to put it in the gap, but it was messing with the string alinement.

I thought of a solution many years ago but this is just me getting round to sharing it:

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You can see the traditional saddle bottoms out when it's plate hits the trem plate right?
On the redesigned one the 'saddle plate' is higher and the intonation screw can move up and down.. why? because (And I did try to get this to work without up and down) the angle is too steep and keeps the whole saddle too high.

Also .. and I'm just throwing this out there, but Low E saddles don't really need springs for intonation, and very likely could do with shorter screws.

I hope someone sees this idea.. especially Fender staff, and adopts it as standard for radiused necks with vintage saddles. save us all the hassle that have this hassle of messing about .. 'should I put a shim in? it's only a few mm..' etc

Hmm while we're here.. why not throw up some more shots of my Squier Japan '94 Stratocaster? just for fun :)

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Saddles redesign suggestion (minor)
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:07 pm
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You still have plenty of adjustment on the D/G, so the solution is to shim the neck to tilt the headstock toward the player. This will lower the action uniformly, and allow you to raise the saddles to bring the action back up to where it should be.
This bridge design has been around for almost 70 years and works fine when a setup is done properly.

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Saddles redesign suggestion (minor)
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:37 pm
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CB91710 wrote:
You still have plenty of adjustment on the D/G, so the solution is to shim the neck to tilt the headstock toward the player. This will lower the action uniformly, and allow you to raise the saddles to bring the action back up to where it should be.
This bridge design has been around for almost 70 years and works fine when a setup is done properly.


Hey CB :)

I of course realize that @ been around for 70 years. and I mentioned shimming in the OP.. but really why in 70 years hasn't this been fixed? .. didn't need it? that's not true and we both know it man, even by you saying to shim the neck.

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Saddles redesign suggestion (minor)
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:21 pm
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CB91710 wrote:
This bridge design has been around for almost 70 years and works fine when a setup is done properly.


+1

Leo got it right the first time and all hyperbole to the contrary is just that.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Saddles redesign suggestion (minor)
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:31 am
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Wow tough crowd.. no wait, not tough. rude.

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Saddles redesign suggestion (minor)
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:24 am
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Rude for pointing out that the adjustments originally designed into the guitar can correct nearly any condition without resorting to non-standard or modified hardware?
It's a creative solution, but not the best or easiest.
Even Fender recognized that shimming is such a common practice that the 70s and later US models, as well as G&L, have adjustable necks to make "shimming" a process that doesn't require removing the neck.

Personally, I've never found the need to shim any neck in 40 years, including a Squier.

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Saddles redesign suggestion (minor)
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:42 am
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It's more a simple matter of two smaller saddles for the e's.. that's why I said a minor redesign. I love vintage saddles <3 .. I think they were and are a great design, but matching a radius when you hit the trem plate has happened very often to me.. putting a shim in I find leaves an ugly gap.

The rude part was: you and Arjay saw how much I put into the OP.. making that diagram as humble as it is.. uploading the extra pics for fun. No 'hi!' 'hello' 'hey dava'.. to show you are friendly, I was an hour doing all that, for the simple purpose of sharing an idea.

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Saddles redesign suggestion (minor)
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:44 am
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Want some Skittles and a coloring book?

:lol:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Saddles redesign suggestion (minor)
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:50 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Want some Skittles and a coloring book?

:lol:

Arjay


And.. you're proving my point. rude.

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Saddles redesign suggestion (minor)
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:51 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Want some Skittles and a coloring book?
:lol:

Or be evil and mix M&Ms and Skittles in the candy dish on the desk at the office.
Now THAT'S rude :twisted:

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Saddles redesign suggestion (minor)
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:01 pm
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CB91710 wrote:
Or be evil and mix M&Ms and Skittles in the candy dish on the desk at the office.
Now THAT'S rude :twisted:


hehe

tbh I haven't heard of Skittles since the 80s

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Last edited by dava4444 on Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Saddles redesign suggestion (minor)
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:02 pm
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It is simply not a necessary redesign.
Set-neck guitars like the Les Paul have greater range of adjustment than the Strat saddles.
If the Strat saddle is decked, then the string is also too close to the pickup, so the pickup needs to be lowered into the body... there is a limit how low it can go before it hits bottom.
Better to simply shim the neck (or adjust the tilt neck screw) to put the action where it should be with the A and B saddles in the middle of their adjustment range. That allows plenty of adjustment on both the inside and outside strings without having to use a different or modified saddle.

Production is all about controlling costs. Fender already inventories 3 different grub screw lengths for the saddles so you don't have 1/4" of screw jammed into your palm from the 1st and 6th strings... but grub screws are cheap. One saddle for all vintage style bridges is also cheap. Inventorying a shorter saddle would actually significantly increase costs... and it's not needed.

In over 40 years I've never once bottomed out a saddle on any guitar. Your neck is not adjusted properly... either it needs to be shimmed or there is excess relief causing the action to be too high.

Sorry if you think it's rude that we don't feel that it is a good modification. Yes, you put a lot of work into it... it would have been a lot less work to put a matchbook cover under the heel of the neck (or maybe a half turn on the truss rod? How's your relief now?)

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Saddles redesign suggestion (minor)
Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:34 am
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It's great to come up with new ways to do something old. The problem here is your market is speaking to you in this thread and it's not looking good.

Even if your design is a vast improvement, you will get nowhere without convincing the actual users. You may be feeling the necessity for this redesign, but it seems like the majority of your target market is not interested.


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Post subject: Re: Vintage Saddles redesign suggestion (minor)
Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:41 am
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ghost_of_strings wrote:
It's great to come up with new ways to do something old. The problem here is your market is speaking to you in this thread and it's not looking good.

Even if your design is a vast improvement, you will get nowhere without convincing the actual users. You may be feeling the necessity for this redesign, but it seems like the majority of your target market is not interested.



That's fair enough man :) .. and thank you for being nice to me.

I just wanted to get this idea out in the ethersphere :) .. did that. If people don't like the idea.. they can just let the thread die by not replying. I'm fine with that.. as long as I shared the idea.. I did my part.

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Saddles redesign suggestion (minor)
Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:04 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
CB91710 wrote:
This bridge design has been around for almost 70 years and works fine when a setup is done properly.


+1

Leo got it right the first time and all hyperbole to the contrary is just that.

Arjay


dava4444 Nothing here but informed individuals telling you something you didn't want to hear! That's not rude, just factual! Leo in fact did get it right and there is nothing to be fixed, as long as you set up the guitar properly as Leo intended. Please don't call out fellow forum members when they state facts even when you don't like the fact.

T2

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