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Post subject: Re: Are you using wireless at all?
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:17 pm
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ghost_of_strings wrote:
Perhaps you mean they can choose which channels are available on a particular device.
Agreed with this. Years ago, working with wireless cameras for traffic signal applications, we were getting interference from a condo complex nearby.
We were able to rotate the position of our cameras at the intersection to avoid issues.
I asked our supplier if they had anything other than the 4 available channels. The company had been allocated 8 channels, but because of bandwidth, 1, 3, 5, and 7 were allocated to Canada and we got 2, 4, 6, and 8.
Turns out, the private property camera was on one of the "Canadian" channels and it was by the luck of the draw that we happened to (on 2nd try) put the two cameras that were not close to the private camera on that side of the intersection.
We did have to orient the receiving antenna slightly off-axis, fortunately it was a small intersection and we had good signal.

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Post subject: Re: Are you using wireless at all?
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:52 pm
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CB91710 wrote:
ghost_of_strings wrote:
Perhaps you mean they can choose which channels are available on a particular device.
Agreed with this. Years ago, working with wireless cameras for traffic signal applications, we were getting interference from a condo complex nearby.
We were able to rotate the position of our cameras at the intersection to avoid issues.
I asked our supplier if they had anything other than the 4 available channels. The company had been allocated 8 channels, but because of bandwidth, 1, 3, 5, and 7 were allocated to Canada and we got 2, 4, 6, and 8.
Turns out, the private property camera was on one of the "Canadian" channels and it was by the luck of the draw that we happened to (on 2nd try) put the two cameras that were not close to the private camera on that side of the intersection.
We did have to orient the receiving antenna slightly off-axis, fortunately it was a small intersection and we had good signal.
I found that wireless camera info interesting. Rich. I’m thinking wireless security cameras might have similar or different interference issues under some circumstances. I’m probably in left field with that, but . . . .

Similarily, I once worked an NHL game where our engineers pre-checked a good microwave signal back to the host station from the top of the arena. It checked out fine in the afternoon, but in the middle of the game we lost the signal all because of a crane that swung into our line of transmission so they could park it for the night. :shock: In our mobile truck you could hear the lost revenue hollering till the problem was discovered half way across town by the army of techs driving up and down the streets. Good thing it wasn’t at the end of the game. :P
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Post subject: Re: Are you using wireless at all?
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:27 pm
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YIKES! That was an expensive problem!
In our case, this was before the popularity of WiFi for the most part... probably no later than 2003 if I recall when those cameras were released. They were not networked, just hardened versions of some of the home security junk you can get on eBay for $20. It was all analog.

It was a typical case of the salesman over-selling the product. The wireless were intended only for temporary installations where construction had the street torn up (these were for vehicle detection systems to replace inductive loops). Of course, the salesmen presented them as an "easy" alternative if their conduits were old or stuffed and they had a hard time pulling a 16-3 and Belden 8281 (facepalm).

We had one in Temecula that ended up getting paired up with a spread spectrum radio for the traffic controller to communicate status to the TMC. About every 3 hours both systems would take a dump. This happened to coincide with when the Arco station on the corner fired up whatever radio link they used at the time to transmit whatever they transmitted every 3 hours.
Such is life with manufacturer-licensed equipment that is just a step above consumer grade. Must not interfere, must accept interference.

After a few failed installations, I finally got my boss to back off on pushing the product, and to agree to send me out for a proper site survey before closing the sale.

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Post subject: Re: Are you using wireless at all?
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:06 pm
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CB91710 wrote:
YIKES! That was an expensive problem!

Yup! As much as tens of thousands for a few minutes of commercials times how many breaks there were plus lost uber expensive satellite time for uploading and downloading across the continent.

. . . some of the home security junk you can get on eBay for $20.

Lots of fun if you find you've bought the wrong gear for the intended purpose like extreme weather. :roll:

Must not interfere, must accept interference.

Ah ha! That’s why ya read the fine print. :wink:

After a few failed installations, I finally got my boss to back off on pushing the product, and to agree to send me out for a proper site survey before closing the sale.

Good on ya. Always a good plan. Happy user Happy provider.


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Post subject: Re: Are you using wireless at all?
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:11 pm
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Fortunately, my boss was a firm believer that his techs were just as important as his sales crew, because nobody ever bought something a 2nd time if it didn't work right the 1st time. He had full faith in my judgment on field conditions and I rarely had to argue.

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Post subject: Re: Are you using wireless at all?
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:59 am
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Ghost and CB, you guys are both wrong because you're off in the WiFi weeds. WiFi has zero relevance to any of this. The wireless units I'm talking about do not run the WiFi networking protocol, nor do they adhere to its standards. They run in WiFi space, i.e. from 2.4 GHz to just shy of 2.45 GHz, and that's the extent of their association with Wifi. Again, they do not run WiFi. Relative to channel definitions and assignments, trying to impose WiFi networking conventions here will only lead you (and others watching this topic) into confusion.

This will be my last post on this matter. In parting, I would urge both of you to dig deeper into how mic/instrument wireless systems use the 2.4 GHz band, if you want a proper understanding.

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Post subject: Re: Are you using wireless at all?
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:22 am
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craig.p wrote:
Ghost and CB, you guys are both wrong because you're off in the WiFi weeds. WiFi has zero relevance to any of this.

Then why does the user's manual for the Line 6 Relay G10 say "Since the G10 is a 2.4GHz wireless system, please avoid placing the receiver next to other RF transmitting equipment. We recommend that you install the G10 Receiver at least 3 meters (10 ft) away from RF transmitters, i.e. Wi-Fi routers."? Why would it matter if they can't interfere with each other? Feng shui?

This is from the manual for your Shure GLXD:

"Tips and Methods to Improve Wireless System Performance
If you encounter interference or dropouts, try the following suggestions:

Scan for the best available channel (press the channel button).
Reduce transmitter to receiver distance - for example, place receivers on stage with a line of sight to the front of the receiver.
Change the group for all GLX-D systems:
Single-Chanel System: use Group 4, which is optimized for single-channel use
Multi-Channel System: use Group 2, which is the most robust wireless group
Move receiver further away from Wi-Fi access points, computers, or other active 2.4 GHz sources. Recommended distance is a minimum of 3 meters (10 feet).
Disable non-critical Wi-Fi on computers, cell phones, and other portable devices
If you plan to use Wi-Fi during a performance, turn on Wi-Fi prior to turning on GLX-D and scanning for the best channel.
Keep the transmitter and receiver more than 2 meters (6 feet) apart
Avoid heavy Wi-Fi traffic activities such as downloading large files or viewing a movie.
Locate competitive 2.4 GHz receivers away from each other
Avoid placing transmitter and receiver where metal or other dense materials may be present
Move the receiver to the top of the equipment rack
Keep transmitters more than 2 meters (6 feet) apart - this is less critical at shorter receiver to transmitter distances
Note: If transmitters are within 6 inches of non-GLXD transmitters or microphone cartridges, audible noise is possible.

During sound check, mark trouble spots and ask presenters or performers to avoid those areas
If there is a known strong source of Wi-Fi and you specifically want to use frequencies within that Wi-Fi channel, use the following Group/Channel of GLX-D (best option listed first):
Wi-Fi 1: Group 3/Channel 8, Group 3/Channel 4
Wi-Fi 6: Group 3/Channel 7, Group 3/Channel 5
Wi-Fi 11: Group 3/Channel 2, Group 3/Channel 1"

It sounds like Shure is as wrong as we are.


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