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Post subject: Re: Have you ever dimed a 100 watt amp?
Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:56 pm
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ghost_of_strings wrote:
strayedstrater wrote:
I've got a dB meter. Got it in '07 but haven't owned a big amp since then. I've taken it to jams where a few people did crank big amps. Highest reading I ever saw was 118dB.

yeah. That would be a problem.

Image


That's not OSHA's chart. They say. 15 minutes at 115dB during a 24 hour period, 7.5 minutes at 120dB.

Look up the average dB of a baby crying. With his/her mouth a foot or two from your ear, put in your earplugs.
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Geez. I smoke. I enjoy it. 2 packs a day for 45 years.

I drink 2 liters of Pepsi everyday. I put 8 teaspoons of sugar in my 12oz mugs of coffee.

I like salt. Lots and lots of salt.

I walk my dog 4 hours a day, and I've never worn sunblock.

I once did one of those clickbait internet quizzes. It asked lifestyle questions and then predicted at what age I'll die.

It said I died 7 years ago.

My left ear is still good to 14KHz. Right ear 12KHz.

If you want to lecture me, I have lots of more pressing issues than dimed amps.


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Post subject: Re: Have you ever dimed a 100 watt amp?
Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:13 pm
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OK, you said you measured 118db. Here is OSHA's chart, what does it say about that?

Image

And how many 15 minute rehearsals/shows have you encountered in your musical career? For my groups it was usually at least an hour.


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Post subject: Re: Have you ever dimed a 100 watt amp?
Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:14 pm
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Again, that's not OSHA's chart. OHSA's chart allows 7.5 minutes at 120dB. For some reason your posted chart interpreted OHSA's written rules (where OHSA simply lumps everything above 115dB as "less than 15 minutes") to mean "no allowable exposure".

Where do you get the idea that I'm saying loud volumes are safe? Or suggesting that people should expose themselves to it?

I don't use sunblock. Many people don't. Everyone should.

I'm simply asking "if you've dimed a 100 watt amp, did you enjoy it or did it cause you pain while you were doing it?" The context of that question was explained in my opening post.

This isn't a topic asking if it's a safe thing to do. We can quibble if a few minutes are safe, but most people who do it play a full set of songs. Or more. That damages hearing.

My comment about trying to limit myself was because the more time you're exposed to excessive volume the more damage you do. I wasn't saying what I've done was safe -- I was saying I tried to do less damage than I could have.


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Post subject: Re: Have you ever dimed a 100 watt amp?
Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:49 pm
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Here's the actual full recommendation:

"OSHA sets legal limits on noise exposure in the workplace. These limits are based on a worker's time weighted average over an 8 hour day. With noise, OSHA's permissible exposure limit (PEL) is 90 dBA for all workers for an 8 hour day. The OSHA standard uses a 5 dBA exchange rate. This means that when the noise level is increased by 5 dBA, the amount of time a person can be exposed to a certain noise level to receive the same dose is cut in half."

From: https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/noisehearingconservation/

So:

90 decibels = 8 hours
95 decibels = 4 hours
100 decibels = 2 hours
105 decibels = 1 hour
110 decibels = 30 minutes
115 decibels = 15 minutes
120 decibels = 7.5 minutes
125 decibels = 3.75 minutes (THRESHOLD OF DISCOMFORT)
130 decibels = THRESHOLD OF PAIN

At 118 decibels, you're looking at around a 10 minute rehearsal unless you want to do damage.

I've just seen a lot of "chest thumping" when it comes to volume and personally I find that immature and pointless. If a band shows up and starts pumping out that kind of volume, I leave and go somewhere else. But to each his own.


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Post subject: Re: Have you ever dimed a 100 watt amp?
Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:16 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Have an audiometric hearing test done on yourself.
If you've been a gigging musician for most of your life, anything above 6kHz and below 25 Hz will likely be gone.
If those gigs were at old school dime volume then you're likely deaf at anything over 3kHz or below 30Hz.

From a few years ago....

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Post subject: Re: Have you ever dimed a 100 watt amp?
Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:05 pm
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Okay, I’ll admit I used to dime my 150 Watt modeling amp. Plenty loud and not too smart. I’m cutting back from experience.

I and a mate pulled an early morning watch above 3”/50 caliber Naval guns. Since we were forgotten by those who had just woken up, they went off unannounced. Long story short, we fell to the deck having lost our hearing and balance for a day, and after the scare we recovered without blood from the ears.

Skip ahead some years and after playing with and without a Naval band full of brass and drums, my hearing actually did not suffer as much as I expected. In fact it was pretty good.

That was until I rehearsed with my kit sitting by a Hiwatt amp. I’ve come to think that after finding blood on my pillow the next morning that drums, loud as they can be, not only move air differently than cabs, but there are variations in sound and dynamics that amplifiers are not able to compare with. Not better or worse - but different.

As I was informed by the ear doc, it is the constant repetition of sound, and loudness being one factor, without a break or variation that has that hammer and anvil beating the same over and over that can really do damage. Frequency is also a demon. Today’s portable digital generation is reputedly slowly evolving to early hearing loss based on a similar scenario. Quality of sound can have an affect too, but that’s another sub-topic. :P
I can say that having worked in control rooms for most of my life, those monitors at any level, unless driven at a various level, can present loss of sensitivity to certain nuances. It was always a struggle to have to turn it up for every Tom, Dick, and Harry who spent sporadic time in the room while we were there 8 hours or more listening to the volumes.

My electric has definitely not helped to keep my hearing where it could be. Perhaps, it would be more correct to say I didn’t help by going to 10, and the tone didn’t Improve.

My take is you can dime it, but beware, without caution, if you use it (especially with repetition) . . . you could lose it. :roll:
FSB

The coolest musicians are the ones that can hear what they are playing. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Have you ever dimed a 100 watt amp?
Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:18 pm
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you don't need a DB meter or a OSHA chart.

your body will tell you when it's around something it doesn't like. you just have to listen (no pun intended)


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Post subject: Re: Have you ever dimed a 100 watt amp?
Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:34 pm
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...unless your ears are already so shot, you can't tell the difference anymore. :lol:

I was playing at what I consider "bedroom practice volume" last night and stuck a meter about 4 feet from the amp. It registered around 90~95 decibels. Way more than I would have guessed.


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Post subject: Re: Have you ever dimed a 100 watt amp?
Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:07 pm
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oh yea you can.. stand in front of any band that's way too loud, and i you DON'T know it,, then,, you may already have a problem


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Post subject: Re: Have you ever dimed a 100 watt amp?
Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:58 am
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No, I haven't.

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Post subject: Re: Have you ever dimed a 100 watt amp?
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:55 am
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Yes I have.


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Post subject: Re: Have you ever dimed a 100 watt amp?
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:18 am
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118 dB seems highly unlikely.
Where were you holding the meter?
Touching the grille cloth?

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Post subject: Re: Have you ever dimed a 100 watt amp?
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:30 am
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No has gone here yet....but why not? Nigel explains it perfectly..."if we need that extra push over the cliff...."



I also like how Nigel holds his burning cigarette butt within millimetres of the priceless '59 Les Paul Tobacco-burst, but won't even let Rob Reiner look at the surf-green Jaguar...


and Yes...I've "dimed" my Musicman RD112 - One Hundred...but not often, and not for long.
Not my video...but you get idea. (Gain @4 - Volume @9...where it should be)

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Post subject: Re: Have you ever dimed a 100 watt amp?
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:19 pm
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Image

There is a DVD edition with extra uncut scenes - it's literally like another full length movie full of various improv. A must-see if you liked 'Tap.


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Post subject: Re: Have you ever dimed a 100 watt amp?
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:45 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
118 dB seems highly unlikely.
Where were you holding the meter?
Touching the grille cloth?


My meter is just a RadioShack that has a disclaimer that it's not guaranteed to be accurate enough for legal purposes.

The 118 was at a jam. A bunch of the Fender Discussion Page members held an annual jam the weekend of the Dallas Guitar Show. The venue was a moderately large bar. Wood floors, brick and glass walls, tin ceiling. Typically around 50 people in a room that could hold 150.

So a very live room. Room gain was such that readings were virtually the same anywhere in the room.

There were 4 guitarists on stage with 50 to 100 watt tube amps, a bass player with a kilowatt rig, drummer, percussionist, and a PA for vocals & percussion.

Generally we "kept it down" between 110 to 115, to accomodate those of us who brought Deluxe Reverbs, Tiny Terrors, Blues Juniors. But that was a particularly exuberant set by the big boys.
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When I had a 25'x30' living room, my Orange Tiny Terror through either an EVM12L or a V30 regularly gave A-weighted 114 dB slow-average readings at 10 feet.

EVM12L and V30 are within a fraction of 100 dB at 1 watt at 10 feet. The OTT is rated at 15 watts, but it's reasonable to estimate closer to 20 when dimed. Theory would predict 113 dB. So my meter probably isn't way off.
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All in all, 118 dB isn't unbelievable given the circumstances.
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I've experienced louder volumes -- 118 was just the highest I measured. Many of the concerts I went to in the '70s and '80s were louder.

Willing to bet my MusicMan HD130 212EVM could do low 120's at 10 feet. (I generally ran the MusicMan in the 65 watt mode when cranked, in deference to 700+ plate volts and tube life. But a couple of times I couldn't resist full power.)

Probably my Park Super Lead too, though I'm less sure about the efficiency of the speakers I ran it through.


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