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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:11 am
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ZZDoc wrote:
Ya'll would have enjoyed the heated thread on these matters which appeared in these pages several years ago...particularly with respect to the ethics and morality surrounding the use of waterslide headstock logos, and the purchase and reuse of neck plates. An outfit named Reliable Fender was at the crux of the discussion.

Doc :wink:
Yup! You are right there, Doc.

We’ve all seen a variety of necks and their applications with and without legitimized identification come and go accordingly. Nothing new here.

History shows, I fear, a more aggressive self serving world of individuals and business. It hasn’t always been that way, and yet, it has occurred in the past many times. This is not to say that reason and good judgment along with morality and ethics are not qualities available throughout, but having participated in formal ethics courses, and being no expert, I only offer one man’s opinion on this as it relates. FWIW.

Without stepping forward to decide the right course to take I will simply put forth some observation on the subject at hand.

There are good laws and bad laws, good practices and bad practices, and a whole slew of rights and wrongs. I believe one is moral or not and ethics I believe can be taught, can be learned, and can be shared. Unfortunately, these days, ethics practiced are in competition with greed and desire (IMHO). It has always been that way, and it will always be.

Fortunately, once in awhile ethics wins the game . . . as long as right from wrong has consensus, is defined, and coincides with accepted law.

YMMV

FSB

Other than that, I would question Fender as to what qualifies as a legitimate Fender neck and Fender identification. After all, they’re the keeper of the key. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:35 am
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Fender Strat Brat wrote:
Other than that, I would question Fender as to what qualifies as a legitimate Fender neck and Fender identification. After all, they’re the keeper of the key. :wink:


My take on that would be what the guitar was when it left the factory. All else is after-market and should be designated as such if it is part of the guitar on resale. We don't have a entity known as 'Guitar-Fax' but you can understand my intent here for the reason why Car-Fax was created. To provide a second owner with an accurate use history of the vehicle. As it is, second owner Custom Shop guitars do not enjoy the benefits of the Custom Shop protection plans. IMHO if you need a replacement neck, or any other part, for that matter, and your ego can't suffer, buy Fender directly. Don't slap a waterslide on a Warmoth product even though they are licensed to manufacture the registerd and protected headstock, or a neck plate you purchased from some source.

Doc :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:05 am
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Now that Fender is selling a wide variety of necks, the game has changed dramatically.

But that's a very recent development. A few years ago you couldn't buy any neck from Fender.

And a decade ago during their first foray into selling necks, they only offered a few styles. As I recall, the only maple fingerboard Strat neck they offered was the '57RI style. If you didn't want a V profile or if you wanted a big headstock, oh well.
--------------------
There was consumer demand for Fender parts that Fender wouldn't sell individually. Reliable Fender recognized that, started buying one used guitar at a time, chopped it up and sold the parts. Demand was high enough that his business grew. Started buying multiple used guitars -- Vintage Reissues, Artist Signatures, even Custom Shops. And continued to grow to the point where he could buy brand new guitars and chop them up. And continued to grow, so he hired employees and opened The Stratosphere.

Kind of the classic American business success story. Recognize an unfilled consumer demand, a new opportunity, and sell people what they want to buy.

For the time being, he still has a niche. Fender doesn't sell every component they make.

As do the licensed neck companies. Lots of people don't want a Fender logo on a guitar they assembled. Either their own custom logo, or blank. And you can get specs still not sold by Fender.
-------------------
This is a great era for guitar enthusiasts. You want a Clapton Strat in a color that you can't get even on a Masterbuilt Custom Shop? Assemble it yourself.

You want a dual truss rod solid rosewood neck? Buy it from Warmoth.

You want a hardtail Strat but don't like the two colors offered on the MIM Cray and can't afford a Custom Shop? No problem.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:38 am
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Going back to the heated discussions that consumed us years ago had nothing to do with Reliable Fender/Stratosphere being a chop shop for parts availability. It was that they included neck plates and necks which were the parts which wore the eqivalent of an automobile's VIN #. It had to do with them being a resource for the unscrupulous and the ethics and morality of both the buyer and the seller in that regard. The same applies to those who manufacture and sell logo decals. IMHO, the neck plates should never have been sold, and the numbers removed from the headstocks.

With regard to my preferences, one still can't purchase a Clapton neck from Fender, so one is obliged to seek outside sources. Just try to get one on a guitar from the Custom Shop that is NOT a Clapton. I tried that 10+ years ago. I had to wait an additional six months for the guitar because they used a '64 Strat as the 'bed' for the build I ordered specifying a Clapton neck, so it came with a '64 neck. I had it sent back for a Clapton neck and they put a generic soft-v on it. I just ran out of patience with them. Ultimately, it was swapped out for my Gilmour in '08 after three years in the herd.

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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:53 am
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Quote:
opinion I received from a world renown intellectual properties attorney I used to commute to work with every morning. It's hard to believe, however, but it appears that if you modify a guitar from stock, as it would 'walk' out of the factory, it is technically no longer that product.
So; based on that...once I change out the original strings....I no longer have a genuine product since it didn't "walk out of" the factory with those strings? Just asking.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:08 am
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White Dog wrote:
Quote:
opinion I received from a world renown intellectual properties attorney I used to commute to work with every morning. It's hard to believe, however, but it appears that if you modify a guitar from stock, as it would 'walk' out of the factory, it is technically no longer that product.
So; based on that...once I change out the original strings....I no longer have a genuine product since it didn't "walk out of" the factory with those strings? Just asking.


No...strings are a disposable component and do not figure into the criteria. Bridges and pickups seem to be the most popular after-market items to swap out. From that aspect, you no longer have a genuine Fender from the legal definition. If you sell it, you must specify the mods, e.g. Stratocaster by Fender with Callaham bridge and DiMarzio pickups.

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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:37 pm
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strayedstrater wrote:
For the time being, he still has a niche. Fender doesn't sell every component they make.
And even then, they are not identical to the originals. Here's a comparison collection of my new MIM, an original '79, and an original '75.
The MIA "big headstock" replacement doesn't have the bullet... it is the same neck as the AmSpec, so it has the "wrong" radius and finish for a '70s model.
Image

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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:51 pm
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dava4444 wrote:
Also.. I balk at those prices when I cannot put a Fender decal on those guitars *officially*.. you didn't really read the OP did you BMW?
Well, back to the OP, the issue was that Reverb insisted that the decal be removed from a Mighty-Mite bodied Partscaster for it to be listed. Yes, it has a Fender neck, but it's still a Partscaster.
You did bring up the issue of the cost being a factor in elevating it above "Partscaster". Nope.
I'm paying a total of about $650 to Patrick Simms for an Allparts (licensed) body painted to match my long-lost '78 Antigua. It will get a Fender MIM neck, but it will still be a Partscaster. By the time I'm done with the build, I will have as much into it as an American Professional.... but it will still be a Partscaster.

Reverb was trying to protect itself from (worsening?) its reputation as a source for dishonest sellers.
Not that your friend was being dishonest... he disclosed what he was selling, but that would not stop someone from buying it and immediately flipping it as a genuine Fender product without disclosing the source of the body.

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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:57 pm
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CB91710 wrote:
strayedstrater wrote:
For the time being, he still has a niche. Fender doesn't sell every component they make.
And even then, they are not identical to the originals. Here's a comparison collection of my new MIM, an original '79, and an original '75.
The MIA "big headstock" replacement doesn't have the bullet... it is the same neck as the AmSpec, so it has the "wrong" radius and finish for a '70s model.
Image
Right on, Rich. That’s why I mentioned Fender approved as opposed to Fender original. Totally different animals; but (IMHO) worthy of Fender nomenclature should both respective parties or Fender alone decide to do so. Even though clones of yesteryear are made with slight changes in Fender’s lineup they still qualify as Fender for obvious reasons.

CB91710 wrote:
. . . that would not stop someone from buying it and immediately flipping it as a genuine Fender product without disclosing the source of the body.

Using the automobile once more as an example, there is no argument from the OEM when a car or truck is chopped, channeled, dismantled and reconstructed, perhaps with a different drive train or whatever, and still kept with the original base badging such as Ford, Chevy, Dodge or any other. The difference being is that one is expected to see and understand that there are modifications. Add to that bragging rights are encouraged and little is left undisclosed.

This, I think, is where the guitar leaves the hot rod comparison behind. To the uninitiated and even the knowledgeable the variables and rarities blur the possibilities as to original, licenced mods, and fakes. As Rich put it, flipping and nondisclosure is always a disadvantage to the consumer. I think a lack of transparency (using the buzzword of the day) will always be present in the guitar world. Attempts to limit that should be applauded lest you or another becomes a victim.

FSB

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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:04 pm
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Fender Strat Brat wrote:
I think a lack of transparency (using the buzzword of the day) will always be present in the guitar world. Attempts to limit that should be applauded lest you or another becomes a victim. FSB


Well writ!

Doc :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:14 pm
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Thanks, Doc.

FSB

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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:25 am
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CB91710 wrote:
dava4444 wrote:
Also.. I balk at those prices when I cannot put a Fender decal on those guitars *officially*.. you didn't really read the OP did you BMW?
Well, back to the OP, the issue was that Reverb insisted that the decal be removed from a Mighty-Mite bodied Partscaster for it to be listed. Yes, it has a Fender neck, but it's still a Partscaster.
You did bring up the issue of the cost being a factor in elevating it above "Partscaster". Nope.
I'm paying a total of about $650 to Patrick Simms for an Allparts (licensed) body painted to match my long-lost '78 Antigua. It will get a Fender MIM neck, but it will still be a Partscaster.



Hey Rich.. I mentioned in the notes of that post what it costs here in the UK for Warmoth. that was the central 'balk'.. I also mentioned Allparts UK were OK 50/50, but with cheaper alternatives with seemly similar build quality.. why go for the more expensive option with no *official* decal?

dava4444 wrote:
But the other members who posted put forward many good points on why this shouldn't be.


BUT I have seen the many points of view on this subject, and I am siding with not putting your own 'Fender' decal on homemade partscaster. aside from the point of it not being a Fender (and also no decal) why should I pay more?

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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:59 am
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dava4444 wrote:
CB91710 wrote:
dava4444 wrote:
Also.. I balk at those prices when I cannot put a Fender decal on those guitars *officially*.. you didn't really read the OP did you BMW?
Well, back to the OP, the issue was that Reverb insisted that the decal be removed from a Mighty-Mite bodied Partscaster for it to be listed. Yes, it has a Fender neck, but it's still a Partscaster.
You did bring up the issue of the cost being a factor in elevating it above "Partscaster". Nope.
I'm paying a total of about $650 to Patrick Simms for an Allparts (licensed) body painted to match my long-lost '78 Antigua. It will get a Fender MIM neck, but it will still be a Partscaster.



Hey Rich.. I mentioned in the notes of that post what it costs here in the UK for Warmoth. that was the central 'balk'.. I also mentioned Allparts UK were OK 50/50, but with cheaper alternatives with seemly similar build quality.. why go for the more expensive option with no *official* decal?

dava4444 wrote:
But the other members who posted put forward many good points on why this shouldn't be.


BUT I have seen the many points of view on this subject, and I am siding with not putting your own 'Fender' decal on homemade partscaster. aside from the point of it not being a Fender (and also no decal) why should I pay more?


If the headstock shape itself isn't important to you, there's no reason to pay more. (Assuming the less expensive necks are indeed equal quality.)

But the headstock shape is important to me, even without a logo.

It's weird. There are a lot of 3x3 headstocks I like, but very few 6-inline. Small Strat head, large Strat head, Trussart's 6-inline. Explorer is ok but I don't completely love it. Parker is kinda ok. Ibanez' 6-inline is barely tolerable. That's it. (Well, I guess Jazzmaster/Jaguar/Coronado, but I don't like those guitars.)

Suhr, Anderson, Peavey, mid'80s Tokai "avoid a lawsuit" head, all of those make me recoil in disgust.

Irrational? Yes. But so is color preference, or liking flamed maple better than plain maple.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:31 pm
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Or... as they say, "you get what you pay for"
I can buy a MIM neck from Fender with the decal for $200, but if I can get a duplicate of my favorite 50/60/70/80/90 from some other source with a BiFlex truss rod and ebony fingerboard, isn't it worth a few more bucks?

There can be plenty of reasons to spend more (or less) on a neck or body. Getting one that is "licensed", IMHO, is not a good reason to spend more.

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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:44 pm
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Regarding "paying extra just for the headstock shape":

Warmoth offers a number of original shapes. They cost the same as their Fender licensed heads.

USACG doesn't have a license, so they don't offer Fender headstocks. But their pricing is similar to Warmoth's.

Remember -- none of them pay Fender a per neck fee. They paid a single small fee a long time ago.

The US and Japan manufactured necks are the most expensive because the labor costs are highest. And because the quality is highest.

Mighty Mite is made by Cort in Indonesia, so less expensive labor.

Most of the no-name non-Fender headstock necks are made in China, Viet Nam, other places where labor is dirt cheap.

Is that cheap "flamed maple" really maple? Or is it sycamore? (Tokai has used sycamore veneer on some LP copies because flamed sycamore has more consistant flame than all but the choicest flamed maple.) There are all sorts of light colored woods around the world.

Are the frets soft mystery metal?

If a worker in a no-name factory slices off a few fingers while operating the bandsaw, do they pay his medical expenses? Paid time off? Or do they kick him out the door and hire someone new?

Are they clearcutting a rainforest for cheap lumber?

Do they buy polyurethane from a factory that's poisoning the villages surrounding it?

Being able to sell Fender headstocks gives a company prestige. And lots of consumers prefer Fender headstocks. So perhaps the licensees do charge a bit more just because they can.

But most of the extra cost is due to other factors.


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