It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:36 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 57 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:13 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:53 am
Posts: 4241
(This topic should have died a long time ago...)

Genuine Fender necks of every kind are everywhere, so if the logo has to be there, why not get one of those?


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:49 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:50 pm
Posts: 1339
Location: Denver, CO, USA
A decade ago when Fender started selling necks, they had a disclaimer that they were intended to be replacement necks and only to be mounted to genuine Fender guitars. When they realized they were mostly being used to build partscasters they stopped selling them. (On the FDP, Eldred and Ringwald explicitely stated that's why they stopped selling them.)

This time around they don't have that disclaimer. But if Nash started buying those and putting them on the guitars he assembles, you can bet he'd get a cease&desist letter. Registered mail sent overnight.

If you buy a used Fender neck, Fender makes no money from that purchase.

And if you screw that neck onto an AllParts body with a Callaham trem and Duncan pickups, doesn't the logo misrepresent the guitar as being a genuine Fender product? Saying it just means it's a genuine neck is a bit of a stretch. Perhaps less of a stretch than having a genuine Strat that you bought brand new, putting a Warmoth neck on it, and thinking that you should be able to put a Fender logo on the neck -- in this example, more of that guitar is genuine Fender.

With most used necks you get a legitimate serial number too. Contacting Fender customer service may reveal the body doesn't match the body originally attached to the neck. Then again, if the original body was sunburst and the Mighty Mite body just happens to be sunburst...

And lots of buyers don't contact Fender customer service. Maybe they just check an online database. Or they just trust that since it has a serial it's real.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:24 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:28 pm
Posts: 1594
Location: SoCal, US
strayedstrater wrote:
And if you screw that neck onto an AllParts body with a Callaham trem and Duncan pickups, doesn't the logo misrepresent the guitar as being a genuine Fender product? Saying it just means it's a genuine neck is a bit of a stretch.
On the flip side, you can buy 100% of the parts that you need to build a Strat or Tele from the shop.fender.com store, including neck and body. The neck has the decal and can be sourced MIM or MIA. I don't know about the bodies, assuming they are MIM as they are poly and under $200.
Pickups, hardware, switches, even the capacitors, with or without micro-tilt, and if you buy a bass neckplate, you can get a "Fender MI Corona" stamped plate without the hole for the mictro-tilt. Pretty much the only thing you can't buy is the proper hardware and adjuster bolt for the micro-tilt, and the Hendrix pickguard and neck, or scalloped necks for the YJM/Blackmore.

It's 100% Fender parts, and Fender made a BUNCH more money on it than it made on your last American-made Strat... but it's still not a Fender product. It is a Partscaster built by a non-Fender employee using Fender parts.
Quote:
With most used necks you get a legitimate serial number too. Contacting Fender customer service may reveal the body doesn't match the body originally attached to the neck. Then again, if the original body was sunburst and the Mighty Mite body just happens to be sunburst...

And lots of buyers don't contact Fender customer service. Maybe they just check an online database. Or they just trust that since it has a serial it's real.
And the replacement necks are serialized on the rear of the headstock, either an MX or US number. However, entering that number into the online check on the site does not provide a return. So again, a home-build using genuine Fender parts can appear to be 100% authentic unless the buyer checks the SN.

_________________
-- Rich


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:41 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:50 pm
Posts: 1339
Location: Denver, CO, USA
CB91710 wrote:
strayedstrater wrote:
And if you screw that neck onto an AllParts body with a Callaham trem and Duncan pickups, doesn't the logo misrepresent the guitar as being a genuine Fender product? Saying it just means it's a genuine neck is a bit of a stretch.
On the flip side, you can buy 100% of the parts that you need to build a Strat or Tele from the shop.fender.com store, including neck and body. The neck has the decal and can be sourced MIM or MIA. I don't know about the bodies, assuming they are MIM as they are poly and under $200.
Pickups, hardware, switches, even the capacitors, with or without micro-tilt, and if you buy a bass neckplate, you can get a "Fender MI Corona" stamped plate without the hole for the mictro-tilt. Pretty much the only thing you can't buy is the proper hardware and adjuster bolt for the micro-tilt, and the Hendrix pickguard and neck, or scalloped necks for the YJM/Blackmore.

It's 100% Fender parts, and Fender made a BUNCH more money on it than it made on your last American-made Strat... but it's still not a Fender product. It is a Partscaster built by a non-Fender employee using Fender parts.
Quote:
With most used necks you get a legitimate serial number too. Contacting Fender customer service may reveal the body doesn't match the body originally attached to the neck. Then again, if the original body was sunburst and the Mighty Mite body just happens to be sunburst...

And lots of buyers don't contact Fender customer service. Maybe they just check an online database. Or they just trust that since it has a serial it's real.
And the replacement necks are serialized on the rear of the headstock, either an MX or US number. However, entering that number into the online check on the site does not provide a return. So again, a home-build using genuine Fender parts can appear to be 100% authentic unless the buyer checks the SN.


Thanks, I didn't know that. The previous time they sold necks they had no seriapartbut had an inlaid brass medallion inscribed "genuine Fender replacement part".

My understanding is that warranty replacement necks also lacked serials back in the day.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:56 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:38 am
Posts: 12975
Location: Canada
In theory some celeb with a proper luthier or tech could do a Fender approved (but not built) Frankenstein to wow the public. Slap on a Fender or clone neck complete with the licenced Fender decal and give the impression that Fender is the one to buy. Happy performer, happy audience, questionable Fender Corp. Could it happen? Would it happen? Unlikely, but not impossible. That impression happens with amps and cabs.

Put a rebuilt Ford engine packaged by a 3rd party into a Ford. Still a Ford right?

Now drop in a Chevy motor into a Ford. Is it a Chevy, a Ford, or a Chord? :roll:
Keep changing parts from whoever and you get a custom car or a custom guitar. But, do either go by the original name? Usually, they both do if the original design is the majority of the appearance. If not, they most often become something else.

Dolly was the first sheep cloned. Cloned or not Dolly is a sheep. That’s like saying Dolly is a clone and a sheep. The same way as a non Fender built product can be called a clone and a guitar. IMHO

Buy an authentic Fender and the questionable identification disappears. Poof! :shock:
That’s all pretty clear now, huh? :lol:
FSB

_________________
Hello, big guitar. Meet my little fingers.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:17 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:50 pm
Posts: 1339
Location: Denver, CO, USA
When Guns'n'Roses burst into the bigtime, Superstrats and Explorers ruled the rock world. Many people credit Slash for reviving the popularity and sales of the Les Paul.

But he did it with a replica built by Kris Derrig. With a Gibson logo inlaid on the headstock. It was a more accurate '59 replica than anything Gibson was making at the time.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:50 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:38 am
Posts: 12975
Location: Canada
strayedstrater wrote:
When Guns'n'Roses burst into the bigtime, Superstrats and Explorers ruled the rock world. Many people credit Slash for reviving the popularity and sales of the Les Paul.

But he did it with a replica built by Kris Derrig. With a Gibson logo inlaid on the headstock. It was a more accurate '59 replica than anything Gibson was making at the time.
Touche’! Thank for adding that, strayedstrater. So do we call that replica a Gibby? Does Gibson? Hmmmm. That brings up a point. More likely the model rather than original brand would be accepted. Ie: LP or Stratocaster, and so on. There are replica Porsches, and others; but, I think the line is drawn. Simply put - there is real and not real. You did a great job giving that example where the audience likely didn’t analyze it to death, and the intention carried it’s effect as intended.

Cheers!
FSB

_________________
Hello, big guitar. Meet my little fingers.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:41 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:10 pm
Posts: 13467
Location: Palm Beach County FL
We've had many discussions on this question in past years. My responses back then were met with understandable objection, but they were crafted from opinion I received from a world renown intellectual properties attorney I used to commute to work with every morning. It's hard to believe, however, but it appears that if you modify a guitar from stock, as it would 'walk' out of the factory, it is technically no longer that product. This came down as a ruling on a case regarding refurbished cell phones in which one of the components used in the refurbishing was different from that which was used in a factory fresh unit.

Please don't kill the messenger. :wink:

_________________
"Another day in paradise!"


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:25 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:50 pm
Posts: 23
Location: Near Glasgow, Scotland
BMW-KTM wrote:
A plain mighty mite neck is $165
A plain Warmoth neck is $150.
I don’t understand the complaint about spending extra.
If 15 bucks is gonna make or break your build then you should not have begun the build.
Things come up unexpectedly when you’re in the middle of a project.

This isn’t really about the money.
It’s about the decal.
It’s about putting a label on an unlabelled neck without permission from the label owner.

Stand down.


+1 for strayedstrater's answer to that post.

Also.. I balk at those prices when I cannot put a Fender decal on those guitars *officially*.. you didn't really read the OP did you BMW?

I talked about.. that I can get *FULLY FLAMED* (non brand) maple necks for two thirds the price of one bog standard allparts neck. oh! and in the UK.. Warmoth are double what you pay in the US.

Obviously I won't post a link here of those ebay generic flamed necks* as that would be disrespectful to Fender, But I'll say while avoiding copyright issues that headstock is not a million miles away from Fender.

I *would* liked to have seen MMite and Allparts Lic. guitars as part of the location scaling, asin~ Mexican then Japanese then American etc. just putting Allparts and MMite at the bottom below Mexican* But the other members who posted put forward many good points on why this shouldn't be.

------------------------------

*made afaik in Spain. seem decent quality.
We don't have Mighty Mite here properly. Allparts UK we do, their plain Fender Lic. necks are around £140/160 (around $200+). We have Warmoth.. Q.Q.. around £265 for a plain neck, that's about $375.
The generic flamed necks were around £85 or $120. so..

Allparts UK : $200
Warmoth: $375
Generic: $120

I like Allparts UK..their prices are 50/50 OK. got some stuff off them before.. then sometimes you shop and its 4 times the price of ebay for exact same thing :/

* this is definitely not a slight on Mexican guitars.. in fact check my sig. my first Fender is Mex made* and I STILL own it* ;). it's simply suggested as 'price logic'.

_________________
Image


Last edited by dava4444 on Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:44 am, edited 4 times in total.

Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:45 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:50 pm
Posts: 1339
Location: Denver, CO, USA
ZZDoc wrote:
We've had many discussions on this question in past years. My responses back then were met with understandable objection, but they were crafted from opinion I received from a world renown intellectual properties attorney I used to commute to work with every morning. It's hard to believe, however, but it appears that if you modify a guitar from stock, as it would 'walk' out of the factory, it is technically no longer that product. This came down as a ruling on a case regarding refurbished cell phones in which one of the components used in the refurbishing was different from that which was used in a factory fresh unit.

Please don't kill the messenger. :wink:


I certainly don't have any urge to kill the messenger.

But trademark law is a sticky wicket with lots of qualifiers. "If", "ands", and "buts". And a few butt heads like me who try to understand the law without having gone to law school.

A company that refurbishes another company's products and independently resells them may not be able to sell them as a product of the company that made them.

But if the company that made them hires another company to refurbish them, the company that made them may resell them as their own refurbished products.

That is, if I buy a bunch of broken iPhones and fix them, I can't sell them as Apple products. If Apple finds out I'm doing it they could demand that I scratch off all physical logos and remove all Apple software.

But if Apple hires a company to refurbish broken phones, Apple can then resell them through their dealer network as genuine refurbished Apple products.

And if I owned an iPhone and decided to hotrod it with a faster chip or more memory or something, I could sell it as an Apple iPhone -- as long as I declare the modifications to the buyer
------------------
So, guitar scenarios. There's a company called Historic Makeovers that modifies Gibson Les Pauls to be more vintage-accurate. Full-boat makeovers include replacing the body's maple cap, replacing the neck and fretboard, and complete refinish. And they put the original headstock logo back on the new head.

Gibson can't really do anything about that to stop it. The guitars and the inlaid logos belong to the customers the whole time HM is working on the guitars.

But if HM started buying Les Pauls themselves, do the makeovers and then sell them, Gibson could object. Even if HM bought used Les Pauls to modify, Gibson could demand that HM not re-use the Gibson logo. (It would be up to a court to decide the legality of all that.)

Ownership of the product that's being modified is a subtle distinction but it matters. A business that buys things with the intent of modifying them and reselling them is under a different set of rules than a private citizen who buys something, modifies it, then resells it.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:01 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:50 pm
Posts: 1339
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Even lawyers and judges who specialize in trademark law interpret it differently.

Remember when Gibson sued PRS, alleging the PRS Singlecut infringed on the Les Paul trade dress?

Gibson had a law firm that was convinced the Singlecut infringed. PRS had a law firm that was confident it didn't. Both presented their arguments to a Nashville judge who sided with hometown Gibson and issued an injunction forcing PRS to stop making the Singlecut.

On appeal, both sets of lawyers repeated the same arguments to a higher judge. Who sided with PRS and lifted the injunction.

If you pay a lawyer enough, he can always think of an argument that supports your side of a trademark dispute. And depending on how well both sides present their arguments, and the judge's own personal interpretation of the intent of the law, a case that seems clearcut may get a ruling that flies in the face of precedent.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:08 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:28 pm
Posts: 1594
Location: SoCal, US
strayedstrater wrote:
Remember when Gibson sued PRS, alleging the PRS Singlecut infringed on the Les Paul trade dress?
Is there anyone that Gibson did not sue? Even manufacturers that had different headstock patterns, didn't use the diamond or paw print, and even different proportions on the neck vs bridge body cut radii were targeted.

_________________
-- Rich


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:13 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:50 pm
Posts: 1339
Location: Denver, CO, USA
CB91710 wrote:
strayedstrater wrote:
Remember when Gibson sued PRS, alleging the PRS Singlecut infringed on the Les Paul trade dress?
Is there anyone that Gibson did not sue? Even manufacturers that had different headstock patterns, didn't use the diamond or paw print, and even different proportions on the neck vs bridge body cut radii were targeted.


"Paw print". I like that.

Another guy said the tulip is actually a squatting frog.

And when you look at it with those thoughts in mind, it really does look more like a frog or paw print.

Even on acid I never saw a tulip that looked like that.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:29 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:50 pm
Posts: 1339
Location: Denver, CO, USA
And actually neither Fender nor Gibson have filed a lot of suits.

They just have their lawyers send cease & desist letters. The intimidation of a costly legal battle that would bankrupt most smaller companies is all it usually takes.

When a small company responds with "come at me bro" they often back down. Because there is a risk that the big boys will lose, and that would seriously weaken their ability to intimidate others.

Nash builds relics using AllParts licensed necks. With his own logo. Fender sent him several cease & desist letters regarding the use of the Fender headstock shape.

He's still using AllParts licensed necks. If Fender took him to court and lost, that could open the floodgates.

Tokai could build necks for AllParts, buy them back from AllParts, slap Tokai logos on them and re-enter the US market.

All any manufacturer would have to do is buy necks from Mighty Mite, Warmoth, any of the licensees, and then put their own logo on the neck.

The only clause in the license that allows revocation of the license is the requirement that the necks must be built to Fender's specs or higher. Fender can't force a licensee to stop selling to any particular customer.

Edited to add: "intimidation" and the way I described legal tactics may sound more negative than I intended. Companies are required by law to enforce/protect their trademarks, or they risk losing those trademarks.

Trademarks have financial benefits. Companies that infringe on trademarks are doing harm to the companies that own those trademarks.

A cease & desist letter may be "intimidating". But it's necessary when a company thinks another company is committing trademark infringement. And it's more "gentlemanly" than immediately filing a lawsuit -- it gives the smaller (possibly) infringing company a chance to change their ways and stay in business.

Business is business. It can be ruthless and cutthroat. And it's not like Gibson and Fender are the only ones doing it.

There were some awesome Japanese Rickenbacker bass copies back in the '70s. When's the last time you saw a Ric copy? They didn't disappear because no one wanted to buy them. They're gone because Rickenbacker is way more pugnacious than Fender or Gibson.

Leo had to rename the Broadcaster because Gretsch had a line of drums called "Broadkasters" and sent him a cease & desist letter.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:52 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:10 pm
Posts: 13467
Location: Palm Beach County FL
Ya'll would have enjoyed the heated thread on these matters which appeared in these pages several years ago...particularly with respect to the ethics and morality surrounding the use of waterslide headstock logos, and the purchase and reuse of neck plates. An outfit named Reliable Fender was at the crux of the discussion.

Doc :wink:

_________________
"Another day in paradise!"


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 57 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: PaulLF and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: