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Post subject: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:48 am
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Hi guys

I was just going about my way on facebook doing what I do.. and I saw a post saying there was this guy whos a member one of the guitar groups which I am also a member, he was saying Reverb told him to remove a Fender decal from his Mighty Mite Fender Lic. built Strat.. at first I was kind of shocked! Because.. really.. what's the point of using Lic. Fender stock.. if you can't put the decal on.. I mean.. these are EXPENSIVE parts, I can get a totally flamed neck for 2/3rds the price of a Fender Lic. neck*.

I just assumed that was the big perk you got when you bought Fender Lic. gear.

No one's saying this guitar is a thoroughbred Fender, but sinking so much money into it .. imho.. elevates it above the likes of a 'partscaster'.. surely?? as long as he states 'Mighty Mite Lic. Fender Stratocaster' in the title of the ad.. he should be good to go.. right? IMHO.. you earn the right to put the Fender decal on when you pay the extra for officially licensed. If you sand the stamp and sell it as Fender.. yeah that's fraud, if you don't put it in the title.. yeah that's wildly morally irresponsible of you .. but you keep the stamp.. take pictures of the stamp.. have it in the heading its Lic. ... and you still don't get to keep the Fender decal. welp that sounds somewhere near crazy to me.

Is Reverb wrong? should they be already allowing this and they made a gaff in their understanding of Fenders rules about Lic.'ing.

Now I touched on the partscaster thing before.. but another thing, I don't mind if someone is upfront about saying its a 'Mighty Mite Fender Stratocaster'.. man, if we can stomach Warmoth*, I most definitely can stomach MMite and Allparts. Fender *must* be holding them to account right? QC must be as high as Mexico/Japan (I LOVE old Mexican/Japan Strats).. if so there's no shame in having their name on them.. so long as the stamps there right?

anyhoo.. glad I finally took the plunge into the Fender Official Forum.

Rockin'

Dava


*there are ebay sellers who sell flamed necks for £80 to £100. Allparts are £130 +
* I *get* why they exist.. but man.. bring your wallet!

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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:28 am
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So you don't feel that FMIC, as the legal owner of the ™'s and ®'s and such, should be the master of the universe on who/what/where can use those..?
I'd sorta guess the majority of forum members don't share your view.

Nice flame for a first post. :lol:


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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:31 pm
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jmattis wrote:
So you don't feel that FMIC, as the legal owner of the ™'s and ®'s and such, should be the master of the universe on who/what/where can use those..?
*snip*


I don't understand. Fender issued a license to another manufacturer.. so what does that mean?

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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:44 pm
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dava4444 wrote:
jmattis wrote:
So you don't feel that FMIC, as the legal owner of the ™'s and ®'s and such, should be the master of the universe on who/what/where can use those..?
*snip*


I don't understand. Fender issued a license to another manufacturer.. so what does that mean?


The United States Government's Food And Drug Administration (FDA) licenses many pharmaceutical companies to market generic versions of patented drugs that are also sold exclusively under the trade names given to them by the company that developed them, eg: Zantac. This antacid was originally patented by Smith-Kline Beecham but is available generically as ranitidine.

Same situation with "Fender-licensed" replacement parts.

Thus, you have a generi-caster.

Case closed.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:10 pm
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Fender issued licenses to allow certain manufacturers to continue using Fender headstock shapes. That's all -- they didn't grant permission to use the Fender logo.

A legal argument can be made that you have the right to decorate your own personal property any way you want to. But there is no legal right to sell something with an unauthorized trademarked logo -- even if you make the true origin of the item explicitly clear and aren't trying to commit fraud/counterfeiting.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:19 pm
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Quote:
The United States Government's Food And Drug Administration (FDA) licenses many pharmaceutical companies to market generic versions of patented drugs that are also sold exclusively under the trade names given to them by the company that developed them, eg: Zantac. This antacid was originally patented by Smith-Kline Beecham but is available generically as ranitidine.


Hi Arjay

I understood this ^.. but not how it applies to Fender Licensed parts. Is it OK to sell these guitars on with the Fender decal? (given the conditions above).

Because if it isn't.. I don't see the advantage of paying the extra chunk of money.
But it seems like you *might* be saying it's okay.. because you mentioned that using Zantac was okay, because the FDA has a licence.

@ strayedstrater

Thank you!

AHH this I understand. (you knew what I was saying but for everyones else :) ) I can't help but feel Fender is shooting themselves in the foot with this.. I realize they *must* have brand protection, and I support that, but.. I still don't see a reason to buy those parts.. I mean you could just buy a Squier. And those flame maple necks.. they aren't Fender headstock but they are close enough, I could make my own decal* design that would look rocking..

anyways I guess this is solved!

have a great day guys :)


------

*Update 12/Mar/18:
Just to be clear, I mean make my own decal with my own name, not Fender.

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Last edited by dava4444 on Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:13 pm
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FMIC lost the trademark protection of the Fender headstock shape more than three decades ago -- thus it's perfectly legal for any company to sell an identical or near-identical product. However, Fender still retains (and likely always will) the right to their logo and how it is used. You as a private party are free to do whatever you wish but if you use the Fender logo for *commercial* purposes (or endeavor to enlist a third party to do so) you are infringing on FMIC's propriety and risk legal action. The most egregious violators are usually prosecuted.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:27 pm
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The main problem is how it is potentially represented when sold or re-sold.
I will be building a Partscaster using a genuine Fender MIM neck. The decal is factory, AND it has an "MX...." serial number on the back of the neck. It is an identical neck to the current MIM "Classic Series 70"
I will be using an Allparts licensed body with a custom paint job and genuine Fender hardware.
In addition to having the custom painter's signature in the tremolo cavity, I intend to stamp "Partscaster 2018" into the body under the pickguard so it can never be sold represented as a genuine Fender.

A Partscaster or a "Generi-caster" is not a Fender product, even if all Fender hardware is used. It is your creation, but it is not a "Fender".

As stated above, the decal is not a problem for your personal property, but there are a lot, and I mean A-FREAKING-LOT of Partscasters offered for sale and represented as genuine. Check out the guitar related Youtube channels like Woodeso's, Dave's, etc.... The problem isn't that you are offering it for sale disclosing that it is a clone, the problem is that your buyer may try to "flip" it as genuine.

Reverb is likely watched very closely by FMIC, and FMIC may even have been the source of the request to remove your decal.

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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:36 pm
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This is my FrankenStrat ... Mighty Mite neck, f-spaced Dimarzios, and Fender everything else (no serial number). As long as no one tries to pass their "non-Fender" Strat as something it isn't, it does not bother me. I found my Mighty Mite neck was nicely made except the fret edges were a big hassle to get right ... very non-Fender.

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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:52 am
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The thing with Fender licenced parts is that the fit can be expected to be better. The non-licenced, cheapest parts can be anything.
Plus there's the nice bonus that FMIC gets some money of the licences, and thus the real Fender price level can be kept affordable. :mrgreen:

@01GT eibach, that guitar is nice but the use of the logo, IMHO and no offence meant, absolutely not. My line of thinking goes, if one is proud of one's handiwork, why try to hide the origins.
And on that 'as long as no one tries to pass' area, legally you're right, but there's the moral side. Partscasters move on from the maker, then they pop up on the forum's 'is this an original Fender' topics.

Quote:
In addition to having the custom painter's signature in the tremolo cavity, I intend to stamp "Partscaster 2018" into the body
That's the way (uh-hu uh-huh). Shows a workman's pride.

(Damn, I shouldn't have written the first answer - there's a slight chance this flame would have just died...)


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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:40 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
FMIC lost the trademark protection of the Fender headstock shape more than three decades ago -- thus it's perfectly legal for any company to sell an identical or near-identical product.

Arjay


No, they almost lost the headstock trademarks 3 decades ago. After decades of lax and inconsistent defense/ enforcement they decided to crack down.

The companies they threatened to take legal action against responded that they were willing to go to court and argue that the trademarks had been abrogated due to Fender's lack of enforcement and thus the headstock shapes had become generic.

Fender recognized they might lose those cases and formally lose the trademarks. So they came up with the licensing idea. The licenses include an acknowledgement by the license holders that the shapes are Fender trademarks used with permission.

That's why USACG can't use the headstock shapes. When Tommy left Warmoth he begged Fender for a license but was denied. So he added those little protuberances -- the customer can easily convert them to Fender shapes, but he can't sell them like that.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:14 pm
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jmattis wrote:
@01GT eibach, that guitar is nice but the use of the logo, IMHO and no offense meant, absolutely not ...

I totally respect your opinion. Truly ... In my case, I just think Fender-shaped headstocks without a logo look soooooo empty. That ... and (again, in my case) ... I think there was enough Fender there to reasonably warrant the logo (again with no SN, and not trying to deceive). That being said, I totally respect your opinion ...

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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:00 pm
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When I built my first partsocaster in '81, I bought a genuine Fender logo decal from a Fender Authorized Service Center. They were a dept in the store where I bought the Japanese body & neck, and knew exactly why I wanted the decal.

Back then Fender didn't care. They sent rolls of decals to Service Centers and didn't keep track of them in any way. Because partsocasters were such a tiny part of the market they didn't even think about it.

Back then I thought the same way 01GT eibach does. It's part of the design, like the shape of the headstock. Doesn't look right without the decal.

Times have changed and I wouldn't do it again. I've even grown to like the blank headstock look.

But I understand why someone would want the logo. And while I agree that Fender should profit from the use of the logo and has the right to determine how it's used, when someone sees a nice guitar like 01GT eibach's, they don't think "I should build a parts guitar" -- they think "I should buy a Fender".

When SRV put a Japanese neck on Lenny and then put a Fender decal on it, no one complained. Fender even built a limited edition Custom Shop expensive replica of it.

And when Stevie posed with a Tokai for the cover of the "Texas Flood" album and then had the Tokai logo airbrushed to read "Fender", no one complained.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:28 am
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A plain mighty mite neck is $165
A plain Warmoth neck is $150.
I don’t understand the complaint about spending extra.
If 15 bucks is gonna make or break your build then you should not have begun the build.
Things come up unexpectedly when you’re in the middle of a project.

This isn’t really about the money.
It’s about the decal.
It’s about putting a label on an unlabelled neck without permission from the label owner.

Stand down.

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Post subject: Re: Fender Licensed Neck and Body.. Is it a 'Fender'?
Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:24 am
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Mighty Mite and Warmoth are both licensed.

OP was talking about $50~75 dollar necks with non-Fender shaped headstocks vs double or triple that for AllParts, Warmoth, Mighty Mite, Musikraft/B.Hefner, or even more for Moses Graphite.

(I think that's all the license holders -- did I miss any?)

But the headstock isn't the extra cost of those necks -- it's the quality. USACG can't use Fender headstocks but they sell for more than Mighty Mites.
-------------------
The license fee was a one-time payment. (Rumor has it that the fee was $1.) Fender doesn't get a penny when you buy a licensed neck.

Fender entered into the license arrangement to preserve the trademarks they were in danger of losing.

The legal acknowledgement that those companies were using Fender's trademarks under license gave Fender much stronger legal clout to prevent other manufacturers from selling guitars in the USA with those headstocks.

Without the licenses, it's very possible that Suhr, Anderson, Sheckter, Charvel (back before FMIC bought them), Tokai, ESP, Fernandes, et al could have used or continued to use Fender shaped heads in the US.

(Ibanez had voluntarily changed their Gibson and Fender headstocks long before, and by the time the licenses happened they had largely moved on to original design guitars.)


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