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Post subject: It appears to me
Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:02 pm
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Is PRS is becoming the premier American guitar manufacture? With their line of PRS, S2, and imported pacific rim SE guitars rounding out the line, Fender and Gibson look more and more like importers and less and less like manufactures in the US. I would hate to see Fender become a mainly MIM import company and Gibson, with survival in question, relying mainly on imported Epiphone products to fill their coffers. I've noticed that Fender MIM are the ones increasing quality with attractive, more expensive and varied products while their Calif. plant seems targeting the nostalgic player and the custom shop for the professional. The industry certainly is changing to my eye.


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Post subject: Re: It appears to me
Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:20 pm
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There is admittedly some merit to your observations.
Corona hasn't completely gone vintage/relic though.
The (semi) newer Pro and Elite series have some small innovations and on rare occasions they even bring out a colour other than the usual traditional options.
You pay for it though.
I stopped caring about Gibson several years ago.
They are welcome to go the way of the DoDo Bird as far as I am concerned .... if that's what they choose by continuing to be obstinate.

I think when Fender decided to call their MIMs "Standards" instead of MIAs that was when they put things in motion to begin moving in a Gibson-like direction where they could raise prices by a lot and cater to the crowd who think ownership of MIA is more about status and laurels than quality and ingenuity.
It's a slippery $!ope if you ask me.

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Post subject: Re: It appears to me
Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:24 pm
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Post subject: Re: It appears to me
Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:48 pm
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PRS are pretty and sound good, but Fender is the American star new or used IMHO YMMV (to quote my favorite Martian).

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Post subject: Re: It appears to me
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:30 am
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I've been hearing rumors that PRS is struggling financially too. Supposedly a big reason why they started putting the Paul Reed Smith logo on the headstocks of the SE's, after years of Paul saying that they'd never put his signature on the imported models. The SE's are no longer seen as stepping-stones to future sales of "real" PRS's -- they are now "real" PRS's essential to keeping the US factory open.


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Post subject: Re: It appears to me
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:28 pm
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Fender's bread and butter has always been the "budget" buyer.
I bought a brand new Strat in '78 with lawn mowing money and money I made working at McDonalds making $2.90 for maybe 15 hours a week.
I wanted a Les Paul, but would have needed a loan.

Today, the same situation exists... you can get a MIA Strat for $1,000-$1,500, while the least expensive MIA Gibson or PRS is more than double that. That's not to say I *still* don't want a new Les Paul... I do :D
But with inflation, comparatively, even the MIA guitars are more affordable than they used to be. My '78 took me over 200 hours work to pay for. Today, 200 hours at minimum wage could buy a Mod Shop MIA Strat.

Comparative quality? I picked up an Epiphone SG a couple of years ago and it's not even close to my mid-90s Sheraton-II and Epi Les Paul. Gibson has a lot to worry about and it's not just problems with their MIA quality control. That SG basically made up my mind that I am "done" with cheap guitars. There are a couple of Epiphone models that look really nice (wine red thinline LP :drool: ), but due to the issues with that SG, I won't be taking a serious look at them. If they lose repeat buyers of Epiphones, they're screwed.

PRS? I checked out an SE24 and you honestly could have fooled me had you told me that it was MIA. VERY nice guitar. Set neck, quality parts and action, sounded great, and for $800, it seems like a great value. I was a bit shocked at the price, and "got it" when I flipped it over and saw the country of origin.

I think PRS really is going to put the pinch on both Fender and Gibson in the $700-$1,000 market.
Even G&L, now has an import model... the MIA G&L and the Indonesian (Cort) Tribute.
My understanding is there is a MIM Tribute series as well, with a different naming convention (not unlike "Fender Squier" vs "Squier by Fender"), but I can't find any current references, perhaps it was only made for a few years?

I'm not crazy about seeing any of these reputable names "watered down" by their own imports... it's bad enough that we have to be careful of home-grown "Partscasters" when buying used... these import models make it still more difficult because they are effectively factory-made Partscasters that do nothing but cheapen the name.

But in the end, it's about the companies surviving. If Fender has to pull up stakes and transfer all production to Mexico, as long as they can maintain the quality they have coming out of Corona, it's not the worst thing that could happen.
Right now, I think top quality is coming from MIA PRS, G&L, and Fender.

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Post subject: Re: It appears to me
Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:08 pm
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CB91710 wrote:
you can get a MIA Strat for $1,000-$1,500, while the least expensive MIA Gibson...is more than double that.


Only addressing this part of your post...you can get a new MIA Les Paul for about $800, less if you're willing to buy one of the still-abundant 2016 models clogging up the dealer warehouses. That will be a low end model like the Faded or Tribute or possibly a Studio; it won't have binding; the body will made from several pieces of wood, usually with a satin finish instead of gloss; the frets may be a little underdressed in spots but will generally be OK; the electronics will be circuit boards instead of soldered wire; the pickup quality may not be the highest end (although they may be just fine too), etc.

These can be fine guitars - my 2016 Tribute T '60s with P-90s plays and sounds good, it came with a good setup that I wouldn't have had to tweak except that I put 10s on it, and cost $800 last year - but yeah, if you want a Les Paul that looks like everyone's mental image of a "Les Paul" with the binding, highly polished finish, top notch frets and fretboard, etc., then you're looking at close to $2k. The low end MIA Strats probably are closer to the higher end MIA Strats than the low end MIA Les Pauls are to the higher end MIA Les Pauls.

A quick word about Epiphone Les Pauls - my overall impression based on a not-too-big sample size is that the $400-$500 Chinese-made Epi Les Pauls are lower end than the $500 MiM Fender Strats, but Epiphone makes an $800 Les Paul model (still Chinese made) with the Gibson USA '57 PAF pickups; I've played a couple of those and was extremely impressed with workmanship, looks, sound, everything. I'm not currently in the market for a Les Paul with humbuckers, but if I were, I would probably pick up that Epi.

But I think this plays to Fender's favor with the budget buyer in another way: you can buy a Fender-branded Strat, that looks almost identical to the much more expensive USA model and generally plays almost as well too, that was made in a Fender-owned and run factory just a little south of the US border, for $500. The equivalent $500 Les Paul is made in a Chinese factory and says Epiphone, not Gibson, on the headstock. I think that gives Fender an advantage with many budget buyers who want a guitar with an immediately-recognizable name on it.


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Post subject: Re: It appears to me
Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:49 pm
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cthulhu wrote:
CB91710 wrote:
you can get a MIA Strat for $1,000-$1,500, while the least expensive MIA Gibson...is more than double that.

Only addressing this part of your post...you can get a new MIA Les Paul for about $800, less if you're willing to buy one of the still-abundant 2016 models clogging up the dealer warehouses. That will be a low end model like the Faded or Tribute or possibly a Studio; it won't have binding; the body will made from several pieces of wood, usually with a satin finish instead of gloss; the frets may be a little underdressed in spots but will generally be OK; the electronics will be circuit boards instead of soldered wire; the pickup quality may not be the highest end (although they may be just fine too), etc.

Also ... You say "MIA Gibson". This is redundant, because unlike Fender and PRS, every Gibson is MIA.

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