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Post subject: recording acoustic mic + piezo?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 8:32 am
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I have an acoustic/electric (Yamaha FGX700SC). In general, other than at open mics where I don't control the sound, I don't use the electric part, but in recording, I typically just mic my acoustic. I was just wondering if there was something to be gained if I recorded a separate track from the pickup to mix in with the mic'ed channel. Anyone doing this? When I go into a sound board, I just leave the EQ at flat, but the few times I tried recording from this it kind of sounded like crap.

Just asking for thoughts... like should I give this more work or just stick with a mic only?

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Post subject: Re: recording acoustic mic + piezo?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:41 am
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A piezo will provide you with dynamics that a mic likely won't give you.
String character, articulation, punch, snap, harmonics.
Depends on your mic and the room and your play style.
Piezo doesn't have those dependencies, at least not to the same degree.

Not everyone likes a piezo for that very reason.
Some prefer the softer, smoother attack of a mic'd up sound.

In my experience, to get the very best sound, you should use both and then blend to personal taste.
Also consider using an internal mic and blend with the piezo.
Internal and external mics reveal different aspect of your guitar's tone and your hands.

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Post subject: Re: recording acoustic mic + piezo?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 1:47 pm
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Thanks! I'll take this advice and work with it a bit to see how useful it is for me. Just with placement and my crap-a$$ SM57 clone, I've gotten it so I don't really even have to EQ my acoustic recordings, but knowing that getting an extra track from the piezo is practically free, thinking I might find it useful. When I play and do vocals at the same time, I get so much bleed through from my condenser mic that I can't add that much more separate guitar to the mix.

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Post subject: Re: recording acoustic mic + piezo?
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 1:55 am
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That all by itself is a really good reason to use one.

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Post subject: Re: recording acoustic mic + piezo?
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 11:39 pm
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Hi, Mark. Matt made some very good suggestions, and I agree with them all. The mixing of mics with and within the acoustic can certainly be an interesting and often pleasable result. Piezos can certainly have their pluses and minuses. The technology has improved some, but old experiences are hard to ignore. Taylor, for example, has three adjusting screws for tweaking the piezo setup similar to adjusting the two screws on either side of the electric single coil pups on a Strat or other typical pups. Preamps in acoustics overall have (in some cases) improved as well. Choice of outboard mics and placement have their own personalities as it goes without saying, and contact mikes to supplement the piezo can present other choices.

The other issue is, "Do you like the unmiked sound of the guitar?". If you do, can you get the closest resemblance with a mike in your possession or with the pickup on the guitar? Mikes will usually do this best.

Matt pretty much covered it here as it stands. This article takes it a little further from another approach with processing, etc. Not to confuse it with the KISS principal, I found it interesting and thought you might too (especially, the part about the DI options).

https://ask.audio/articles/mixing-tips- ... recordings

Lastly, if I understand your question, Mark, you are similarly talking about double tracking which is a common production technique. Not for the timid or those like me that may not be heavy on the skill to do it successfully.

In that case here are two articles that complement each other. (Note: Within the articles there is something said about identical and not different sounds with identical playing combined being the key here. Crap sound is also mentioned).

http://www.proaudioland.com/news/double-tracking-guitar

http://www.prosoundweb.com/channels/rec ... g_guitars/

Best
FSB

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Post subject: Re: recording acoustic mic + piezo?
Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 2:16 pm
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Fender Strat Brat wrote:
Hi, Mark. Matt made some very good suggestions, and I agree with them all. The mixing of mics with and within the acoustic can certainly be an interesting and often pleasable result. Piezos can certainly have their pluses and minuses. The technology has improved some, but old experiences are hard to ignore. Taylor, for example, has three adjusting screws for tweaking the piezo setup similar to adjusting the two screws on either side of the electric single coil pups on a Strat or other typical pups. Preamps in acoustics overall have (in some cases) improved as well. Choice of outboard mics and placement have their own personalities as it goes without saying, and contact mikes to supplement the piezo can present other choices.

The other issue is, "Do you like the unmiked sound of the guitar?". If you do, can you get the closest resemblance with a mike in your possession or with the pickup on the guitar? Mikes will usually do this best.

Matt pretty much covered it here as it stands. This article takes it a little further from another approach with processing, etc. Not to confuse it with the KISS principal, I found it interesting and thought you might too (especially, the part about the DI options).

https://ask.audio/articles/mixing-tips- ... recordings

Lastly, if I understand your question, Mark, you are similarly talking about double tracking which is a common production technique. Not for the timid or those like me that may not be heavy on the skill to do it successfully.

In that case here are two articles that complement each other. (Note: Within the articles there is something said about identical and not different sounds with identical playing combined being the key here. Crap sound is also mentioned).

http://www.proaudioland.com/news/double-tracking-guitar

http://www.prosoundweb.com/channels/rec ... g_guitars/

Best
FSB


Thanks! Interesting reading! Can't say I'm near enough precise enough to do a real double tracking... but the EQ matching looks interesting to try as a starting point! Since I'm already happy with the mic'd sound, I think I'll just be mixing in a little piezo track... perhaps with a delay or something to flavor my sound.

Have a great holiday weekend!

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Post subject: Re: recording acoustic mic + piezo?
Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 4:18 pm
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mh2000 wrote:
Thanks! Interesting reading! Can't say I'm near enough precise enough to do a real double tracking... but the EQ matching looks interesting to try as a starting point! Since I'm already happy with the mic'd sound, I think I'll just be mixing in a little piezo track... perhaps with a delay or something to flavor my sound.

Have a great holiday weekend!

Glad you enjoyed the read, Mark. I know how difficult double tracking can become. My time with some engineers from Polydor's mobile division showed me a whole other level of recording experience, and pristine musicianship that includes common practices that are, at least for me, in the third dimension. Double tracking a short piece is one thing, but lengthy complicated work is another. That's why they're pros in a league of their own.

Looking forward to your eq/piezo tryout, Mark, and we like all your flavours.

Enjoy your holiday too.

FSB

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Post subject: Re: recording acoustic mic + piezo?
Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:21 pm
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On occasion I have played once and recorded twice.
Makes short work of doubling.
Of course, it requires an interface capable of processing two channels simultaneously.
What I've done was to set up a mic (58 Beta) and use the piezo.
The piezo was panned 10% left and the mic was panned 10% right.
Let's say 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock just for the sake of argument.
I put a touch of chorus on the piezo and a bit of reverb on the mic.
I thought it sounded pretty good.

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Post subject: Re: recording acoustic mic + piezo?
Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:13 pm
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Hey there Matt. I'm betting your technique sounds cool. I'll try it sometime during my current experimentation of the new acoustic current choices with my gear. I have a TCH VoiceLive Play GTX with 500 presets of which, although an acoustic version is now available, there will be some interesting features. The Lexicon and DAWs with their plugins have yet to be tried; however, I did manage to use the piezo with the amp and presets.

Still, double tracking will have a different effect. To simplify, it seems (to some) fatter rather than just a wider or varied stereo sound with effects, and it is to sound close to the same on both L &R sides for true double tracking results. A duplication of the same mono track recording to both a left channel track and a right channel track will only result in mono. But, if one track's recording has any subtle copy differences in a similar attempt to replicate the original then it will have a doubling effect if that makes any sense. The possibilities in the mix with or without effects will be different for sure.

A simulated doubling with tape delay is called ADT (Automatic Double-Tracking) or (Artificial Double Tracking), similar to flanging. This basically automated technique is associated with the Beatles, and used by many others. But, that's a whole other kettle of fish.

Keep rockin'
FSB

Gawd, I love the basics (at times). :wink:

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Post subject: Re: recording acoustic mic + piezo?
Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 7:38 am
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Yah ... my thing sounds nothing like that.
It's still a single instrument.
The ears don't detect anything else.
My thing just gives a fuller sound with just a slight hint of imaging.
Maybe with a delay on one side, more panning separation, etc.
I'm not that adventurous .... yet.

I should not have used the word doubling.
My apologies.

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Post subject: Re: recording acoustic mic + piezo?
Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 7:56 am
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Apologies? What for? You made some great contribution here with some good ideas. So celebrate with a beer, eh?! And take off that toque. It's time to enjoy the summer. :wink:
FSB

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Post subject: Re: recording acoustic mic + piezo?
Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 5:34 pm
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Apologies for leading the belief my little thing was like doubling.

Speaking of relaxing ...
The GF and I planted some perennials around my house today.
Several beers were consumed.
Several.
OK, maybe more than several.
Now off to find a suitable establishment to fill our bellies with good eats and ..... wait for it .....

more beer!

:wink:

I'm glad the weather has finally decided to warm up and stay warm.

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Post subject: Re: recording acoustic mic + piezo?
Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 9:19 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Apologies for leading the belief my little thing was like doubling.

Speaking of relaxing ...
The GF and I planted some perennials around my house today.
Several beers were consumed.
Several.
OK, maybe more than several.
Now off to find a suitable establishment to fill our bellies with good eats and ..... wait for it .....

more beer!

:wink:

I'm glad the weather has finally decided to warm up and stay warm.

Way to go, Matt. We Canucks have to keep up the Hoser identity. It's part of our culture. :P
FSB

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Post subject: Re: recording acoustic mic + piezo?
Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 7:13 am
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The year was 1981.
I was working in Penticton and flying home to Cranbrook each weekend.
Early Monday morning I'm sitting on the plane, as usual and lo & behold a friend of mine sits down beside me.
He and his girlfriend are stoned smooth out of their skulls .... at 6:15.
The plane is late departing.
10 minutes, 15 min, 20 min, 25 min.
30 minutes after we were supposed to depart I can see a guy in uniform carrying a briefcase running out to the plane and climbing the stairs to board the plane.
I'm pretty sure it's a captain.
I have an aisle seat so I lean out to look.
The captain is out of breath and he pauses at the steward station and looks out into the passengers.
In my best Bob Mckenzie voice I holler down the aisle.
"Take off, eh?"

My stoned friend was unable to converse for the rest of the flight ... from laughing so hard.

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Post subject: Re: recording acoustic mic + piezo?
Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 8:56 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
The year was 1981.
I was working in Penticton and flying home to Cranbrook each weekend.
Early Monday morning I'm sitting on the plane, as usual and lo & behold a friend of mine sits down beside me.
He and his girlfriend are stoned smooth out of their skulls .... at 6:15.
The plane is late departing.
10 minutes, 15 min, 20 min, 25 min.
30 minutes after we were supposed to depart I can see a guy in uniform carrying a briefcase running out to the plane and climbing the stairs to board the plane.
I'm pretty sure it's a captain.
I have an aisle seat so I lean out to look.
The captain is out of breath and he pauses at the steward station and looks out into the passengers.
In my best Bob Mckenzie voice I holler down the aisle.
"Take off, eh?"

My stoned friend was unable to converse for the rest of the flight ... from laughing so hard.


Holey Crap, that was hilarious, bro'. :lol:
FSB
I have a buddy that flies overseas for Air Canada. He's gonnna love that story. :D

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