It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 5:16 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
Post subject: Ultra-responsive amps?
Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:27 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:23 pm
Posts: 2
Hey guys,

I'm new to the forum here. I'm a guitarist living and working in Spokane, WA. My sound is primarily jazz with some indie influence. My bands play a lot of my original music with jazz standards and covers along with some hip-hop stuff.

For some time now, I've been looking to solve what I refer to as the "guitar problem." Namely, there are two issues:

1. Electric (and acoustic) guitars have a very limited dynamic range and cannot easily use a wide range of dynamics without turning an amplifier up or down, which is an unnatural sound.

2. The sustain of the instrument without distortion is very limited, making long, high notes without distortion impossible.

I am curious to know if any of you have ever tried to come up with a way to address these problems. I have a vision for an amplifier that would react to the amplitude of the input from the guitar and magnify it, so that I could play very soft backgrounds and lead lines over a big band all at one volume setting. I am curious to know if this kind of amplifier is possible or even exists.

The sustain issue is trickier, because ideally the sustain would be natural and controllable. I've considered using a pedal like the electro-harmonix freeze like the sustain pedal on a piano, but that doesn't allow the type of control over a note that I would need. E-bow would be another option, but those are large and unwieldy to use during an improvised solo.

Do you guys have any ideas on either of these issues? What might you recommend for seeking out a solution to these issues?

Thanks!
DK


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: Ultra-responsive amps?
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:40 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:13 pm
Posts: 19025
Location: Illinois, USA
Welcome to the Forum dkoch18. 140 dBA or better is the sound level I aim for live. Think a radioactive Henry Vestine. One of our members should be able to answer your questions though. Have fun here.

_________________
you can save the world with your guitar one love song at a time it's just better, more fun, easier with a fender solid body electric guitar or electric bass guitar.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Ultra-responsive amps?
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:42 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:53 am
Posts: 4241
Hi, nice start on the forum - this might turn into a very important, long and maybe heated topic. :wink: I'll throw in something to begin with, it'll be interesting to see further comments.

To me, "a dynamic amp" equals tube amp. For clean sounds, one would need something with enough power and headroom - top end Fenders, for example.
That kinda amps give a lot of dynamic response with just altering the pick/finger attack on the strings. And with the amp vol up, the guitar vol (or, you could use a pedal) still increases the possibilities - you might want to check Roy Buchanan vids on youtube & such for examples.

On endless but clean sustain, maybe something like the Fernandes Sustainer, (and/)or possibly a looper. I'm an oldschooler myself, so volume and distortion are closely attached with sustain in my vocabulary.

Edit: I purposedly left out the usual examples for sustain, since in a way they usually seem to have an element of distortion included, and I'm not sure if I totally get what you're looking for - might even be you hear a sound that doesn't exist yet. Any clues of the direction, like do you have any music online?


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Ultra-responsive amps?
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:20 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26417
Location: Tombstone Territory
jmattis wrote:
Hi, nice start on the forum - this might turn into a very important, long and maybe heated topic. :wink: I'll throw in something to begin with, it'll be interesting to see further comments.

To me, "a dynamic amp" equals tube amp. For clean sounds, one would need something with enough power and headroom - top end Fenders, for example.
That kinda amps give a lot of dynamic response with just altering the pick/finger attack on the strings. And with the amp vol up, the guitar vol (or, you could use a pedal) still increases the possibilities - you might want to check Roy Buchanan vids on youtube & such for examples.

On endless but clean sustain, maybe something like the Fernandes Sustainer, (and/)or possibly a looper. I'm an oldschooler myself, so volume and distortion are closely attached with sustain in my vocabulary.

Edit: I purposedly left out the usual examples for sustain, since in a way they usually seem to have an element of distortion included, and I'm not sure if I totally get what you're looking for - might even be you hear a sound that doesn't exist yet. Any clues of the direction, like do you have any music online?


A great post with many valid observations.

Adding my 2¢ to the mix, another problematic issue with sustaining a single HF note is how the human ear perceives sound. A bass note's longer wave (as one would observe on an oscilloscope or spectrum analyzer) produces a more audible cycle than that of a higher-register tone. It's like attending an outdoor concert where a drummer's set is miked and the signals are fed to a monstrous PA. Regardless of the available power, the crash of a cymbal or a roll on a snare drum will always pale in loudness when compared to a bass drum or lower-tuned tom-tom. The ambient air tends to attenuate the HF noise while LF sounds tend to carry further. I'm not sure that compensating for the shortcomings of the human ear is even possible. The highs might be enhanced and augmented by something like a parametric equalizer but the effect might adversely affect the rest of the sonic spectrum.

Food for thought I think......

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Ultra-responsive amps?
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:52 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:37 am
Posts: 4099
Location: New York
If you've run out of ways to increase sustain via your amp, you could consider a different guitar. Do you play a hollow-body or semi-hollow?

_________________
Please subscribe to my Image Channel!
https://www.youtube.com/user/b7567


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Ultra-responsive amps?
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:02 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:50 pm
Posts: 4602
Location: ˚ɷ˚
The problem is entropy.
The amount of original information in the signal can only ever be reduced by an effect or amp, never increased. Effects work, but you always take something away and end up with less than you had. Which is why you can never reverse an effect and get as high quality as the original.

For sustain, boost a decaying waveform to maintain amplitude, and the waveform itself suffers, and you lose some of what makes it sound like a guitar. For a loop circuit, it still has to do this lossy normalization so the end of the loop matches the start, or it will sound very jarring.

You always lose more of your signal than you gain. That is often acceptable; it is always inevitable. You can't cheat entropy.

My recommendation for increased sustain: Thicker and denser strings. The rate of decay is inversely proportional to the amount of mass that vibrates.

As for what amp, only you can answer that. What trade-offs are you willing to make? There will always be trade-offs.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Ultra-responsive amps?
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:00 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:06 am
Posts: 1662
What about using a compressor I have read many articles that say compressor will give more sustain on a guitar. Here is one such article http://www.guitartoneoverload.com/2010/05/21/how-to-use-a-compressor-for-guitar/ I do own lot of compressor but never put one on my guitar, but I might give it a try and see what happen. I do not own any of the guitar compressors though, only racked ones like; DBX 266 and Klark Teknik DN 504
mud


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Ultra-responsive amps?
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:19 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:50 pm
Posts: 7998
Location: ʎɹʇunoɔ ǝsoɹ pןıʍ
For sustain without the use of artificial means, simply crank up the volume.

A compression effect can also help but nowhere near like cranking the loud button.

When it comes to ultra sensitive, ultra responsive amps, I'm not sure you could find anything in the non-boutique world that could match a Blackface or Silverface Vibrolux Reverb. The VR could arguably be called the Holy Grail of vintage Fender clean. It has a nicely usable amount of clean headroom and it is VERY touch sensitive and dynamic. The VR is not a Deluxe Reverb. Almost everyone sounds good through a DR. The VR will reveal your hands like no other amp I've ever played. If you're a sloppy player the VR will slap you across the face with it. Clean up your playing and dig in and vary your touch and the VR will reward you with glorious expressive tone by the dumptruck full.



Note:
Please do not confuse this with the "Custom Vibrolux"
Not the same at all.
Just a similar name.
I have not yet tried the "68 Vibrolux" so I have no knowledge of how sensitive it is compared to the original.

_________________
Image
Just think of how awesome a guitar player you could have been by now if you had only spent the last 10 years practicing instead of obsessing over pickups and roasted maple necks.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Ultra-responsive amps?
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:21 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:53 am
Posts: 4241
arth1 wrote:
The amount of original information in the signal can only ever be reduced by an effect or amp, never increased.

True, but that doesn't tell the whole story.
Feedback was used to repel dinosaurs, and I'm constantly amazed by what the kids today do with their computers.
Almost seems like what twenty years ago could be done only in high end studios is today available for everybody who owns a phone...


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Ultra-responsive amps?
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:31 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 1089
Location: Rossendale UK
Digitech released this recently http://digitech.com/en-US/products/freqout
It might be worth having a look at


You can see and hear the pedal in use from around 4:50

_________________
Chris :)

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Ultra-responsive amps?
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:15 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:23 pm
Posts: 2
Hey all, thanks for all the responses. They are helpful!

I want to clarify what I mean in my original questions. My quest is motivated by jealousy of my horn-playing counterparts. For example, my trombone player can hold a note as long as he can breathe while changing tone, volume, etc. He can also go from an extremely soft sound to an extremely loud sound in an instant just by changing the amount of air. Even with the volume cranked, guitars can't really achieve that in a natural, acoustic way. I would like to be able to do that. I know that it is possible, I just haven't found it yet. My vision is an amplifier that allows you to set a maximum volume, and then essentially uses an algorithm to turn itself up or down in response to your playing. If I were to play very softly, the amp would get great, full tone as if it had been set at 1, but when I dig in it could put out sound at the max volume level that I set it at.

I play an arch top about 85% of the time, and I use a Strat for my modern stuff.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Ultra-responsive amps?
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:59 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:50 pm
Posts: 7998
Location: ʎɹʇunoɔ ǝsoɹ pןıʍ
Yah, you're not going to find anything like that in a conventional guitar amplifier.
Sorry.
There are companies doing all kinds of ingenious trickery with digital signal manipulation these days.
A little bit of that goes into digital processing amps but certainly nothing to that extent yet.
The pedal world seems to be a little ahead of the curve in that regard.
You might want to find an ElectroHarmonix, TC Electronic or Eventide discussion forum and see what those guys have to say.

_________________
Image
Just think of how awesome a guitar player you could have been by now if you had only spent the last 10 years practicing instead of obsessing over pickups and roasted maple necks.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Ultra-responsive amps?
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:10 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26417
Location: Tombstone Territory
BMW-KTM wrote:
Yah, you're not going to find anything like that in a conventional guitar amplifier.
Sorry.
There are companies doing all kinds of ingenious trickery with digital signal manipulation these days.
A little bit of that goes into digital processing amps but certainly nothing to that extent yet.
The pedal world seems to be a little ahead of the curve in that regard.
You might want to find an ElectroHarmonix, TC Electronic or Eventide discussion forum and see what those guys have to say.


+1

There are studio technologies that can accomplish such an objective but AFAIK, nothing (yet) that's deployable to the tactical environment of a live performance.

But R&D never sleeps......there are always possibilities.

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Ultra-responsive amps?
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:36 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:53 am
Posts: 4241
dkoch18 wrote:
my trombone player can hold a note as long as he can breathe while changing tone, volume, etc. He can also go from an extremely soft sound to an extremely loud sound in an instant just by changing the amount of air. Even with the volume cranked, guitars can't really achieve that in a natural, acoustic way.

That's the nature of the beasts. In blowable instruments (*grin*), the air column shape/pressure/etc. can be modified while the note plays, in guitars the vibration of the string defines the note, so you need added effects. Or a bow. :wink:

dkoch18 wrote:
My vision is an amplifier that allows you to set a maximum volume, and then essentially uses an algorithm to turn itself up or down in response to your playing. If I were to play very softly, the amp would get great, full tone as if it had been set at 1, but when I dig in it could put out sound at the max volume level that I set it at.

Here I respectfully beg to differ from what those distinguished gentlemen wrote above...
A good (I'd like to write "tube" here, but that would be just my prejudice) amp does just that, at least to a certain point; turn the amp vol up and control the "true volume" with how you play, and guitar volume/tone pots. Depending on what kind of sounds you need, add effects.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Ultra-responsive amps?
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:08 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:37 am
Posts: 4099
Location: New York
Check out:



Steve Vai uses a Fernandez Sustainer pickup (not necessarily this exact pickup):
Fernandes Sustainer

_________________
Please subscribe to my Image Channel!
https://www.youtube.com/user/b7567


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: